Kribensis mouth stuck open

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sunshinehippy

Feeder Fish
MFK Member
Sep 25, 2009
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London
I know its not a monster and i usually post in the CA/SA section but I have a smaller tank with a breeding pair of kribensis. Today I found that my male krib's mouth appears to be stuck open, I have looked down his mouth and cannot see any gravel or an obstruction. His body appears a little bloated too. However, he is still colourful and doesnt look ill but does seem to be bothered by this. Can anyone help? I have never come across this problem before.
Thanks.
 
What are water parameters? Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, KH ans GH.
Food?
Filtration?
Maintenance schedule?
What about the gills? How do they look? Do you have access to microscopes?
Is the fish gasping at all?
Appearance of stool/poop?
Protrusion of eyes and scales?
 
Sorry but i havent checked these as yet, the fish isnt showing any signs of disease so thats why I didnt think of those to start with. I have had this set up for a few years - change 30% of the water every two weeks. They have always ate the same food, Tetra Prima and sometimes some bloodworm and brine shrimp as a treat. They also have spirunulia tablets about once a week. The gills look fine, no I dont have access to a microscope. Fish isnt gasping just having trouble shutting his mouth fully. The mouth end of his head looks "pinched" and his body seems to be slightly bloaded from past his gills onwards and the scales are protruding slightly. I first thought about Dropsy but I have not seen fish with Dropsy with their mouths locked open before. I have not seen any poop as yet but I only noticed this problem last night, just before I posted. I was thinking about removing the fish later and seeing if I can look further down his throat but its not a very big fish (about 2.5") so it may be difficult to remove anything even if I do find something. one thing I have noticed is that he has some bright red spots around his mouth area but these appear to be part of his colouring and he has had these for a while.
 
Bloating and scale protrusion are signs of dropsy alone. Please post your water parameters. Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH. Use API liquid drops to get test results accurately.

Your water change is very inadequate. For dropsy cases, separate the fish so you can treat it without involving others. In the meantime, do 2-3 times a week water change. There are many causes of dropsy. Dropsy mostly involves fluid retention in the organs.

1. Poor water conditions.
2. Bad food quality.
3. Trauma.
4. Renal failure.
5. Internal parasites.
6. Bacterial infections.

As it is difficult to figure out the actual cause since this is internal, then we need to rule out some of the above causes I mentioned to you earlier.

Firstly, what is the appearance of its poop?
What are your water parameters (before and after a water change)?
Tank size?
Tankmates (aside from the male and female kribs if any)?
Filtration?
Hardness levels (KH and GH)?

White stringy poop can mean a lot of things.

1. Stress.
2. Internal parasites.
3. Internal bacterial infection.

If found to be white and stringy, then it is likely the cause could be bacterial or parasitic. You have a few choices of treatments.

1. Metronidazole and aquarium salt at 0.3% saline solution.
2. Jungle Antibacterial (AB) or Jungle Antiparasite (AP) food. AB is a much better option as this may not involve the cestodes and nematodes at all.

As metronidazole is restricted in UK, your only option to obtaining it is ordering from a USA company online to have Metromeds sent to your home. I personally think every med cabinet should at least have a metronidazole med in case of bacterial infections. These are the safest meds you can consider. This also applies to Jungle products I mentioned earlier.

For salt treatment, dose one teaspoon per gallon first. After 12 hours, add another set assuming your fish is able to tolerate it so far. The last set can be added after another 12 hours to summarize 0.3% or three teaspoons per gallon in all. Dissolve salt when you do so and remember to redose the salt per water volume replaced when you do a water change. It's safe to keep treatment to at least 0.1% or 0.15% though. The sodium chloride (note that I am not talking about epsom salt-magnesium sulfate) should be able to encourage proper osmoregulation to minimize fluid retention.

Do you have access to Maracyn 2 or minocycline? Again, UK restricts most antibiotics. There is oxolinic acid but due to reports of numerous bacterial resistance, I do not think this is an option. Don't use kanamycin if you have access to this as it is nephrotoxic to possible renal failure which could be the cause of dropsy here.

If you can get maracyn 2, you could entice the fish to eat it stuffed in foods. Your best way of treating for dropsy is to use medicated foods. Either minocycline or metronidazole should do the job. If the fish refuses to eat, add garlic or bloodworm juice on the food.

I was going to suggest Baytril injection but this is very tricky and I haven't done it to small fish such as kribs so this isn't an option.
 
Lupin;3871057; said:
Your water change is very inadequate.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your help and all the information but I do not agree that my water changes are inadequate. I am not a beginner fish keeper and it feels as if you are treating me as a complete novice. I have been keeping fish for several years and although there is always a lot to learn I do know a fair amount. I have always performed two weekly water changes and although I realise this is top end for water changes I do not agree that it is "very inadequate". The tank is a 125L Juwul Rio and there are just a pair of kribs plus 8 neon Tetras. They kribs have been giving me babies every month for the last 8 months so they cant be that unhappy! The tank is understocked, I use RO water plus buffer and feed them good quality food. There are live plants in the tank to help minimise nitrates. You are assuming my water quality is poor just by the little information that I have given you. Previous monthly checks indicate that my water quality is good, and the parameters are within line for this type of fish. I do already use liquid API test kits. I will, however take on board what you have said but I am concerned at the immeidate time about the fish's mouth being permanently open, which do not appear with symptoms of dropsy.
 
My point is that even if your test kits showed your water parameters are up to par, that does not mean you have to rule out that there are other factors such as TDS (total dissolved solids) and nutrients (which you pointed out the plants may adequately consume) you have to consider hence why I pointed out that your biweekly water change even at 30% would still be inadequate. You'd have to find out what exactly caused this dropsy if not the biweekly water changes.

You mentioned you used RO water and buffer. What are the KH and GH then?

Yes, I assumed your water quality because you never mentioned the exact results of your kits other than describing them which is not exactly what I am looking for and which I have asked twice. In dropsy cases, rule number one is to oversee your water parameters before jumping to other factors once this is ruled out.

I am aware this still doesn't explain the lockjaw scenario however as you mentioned the scale protrusion and bloating, in my mind, this is my first concern before the lockjaw. The lockjaw situation in many cases usually involve the presence of myxosporidian parasites, if not the salt dosage (due to intolerance) or foreign object trapped in the mouth.

Can you please post a picture of the krib's mouth and the whole body shot for protruded scales and bloating?
 
Hi - I havent been able to get the parameters to you today because I am posting from work - rest assured I will get these to you as soon as I get home. I am intending on doing my water change today anyway so I will do before and after tests. I am not sure if he has dropsy though - it is a difficult one because he does seem bloated but the scales are not sticking up like a pine cone like they do on fish with dropsy. He has always been a bit on the fat side anyway so it is hard to tell. I will take these pics tonight as well and post a video if it helps.

Give me a few hours and I will get these to you.

Thanks.
 
Ok, Krib has definitely got dropsy. I came home today and his scales are now showing protrusion and he is a little wobbly in the water. I don't know if this has got anything to do with his mouth being stuck open. Water quality is good. Nitrates, between 0 and 5ppm, ammonia 0. I bought some Waterlife Octozin because apparently it has metronidazole in it. I added the tablets before I checked the other parameters then realised that the pH would prob be affected by the medication as it is now showing at 6.0. It is normally around 7.0. Thing is apart from being bloated he still has loads of colour and is still protecting his babies, albeit a bit more sluggish than usual. I know the outlook is grim, but I hope he makes it because he is my prize breeder. I wonder why he ended up with this? As far as I believe he gets good quality food. The only difference is that recently I started adding a small amount of frozen blood worm.
 
I'd just stop the RO water, Sunshine. That is going to fluctuate your pH too much which can only aggravate your krib's issue. You'd need to maintain hardness levels no lower than 150 ppm at this point though to encourage your fish to osmoregulate properly during dropsy period.

What are the other active ingredients of your Octozin? I have been wary to suggest Waterlife and Interpet because I have already checked most meds and the ingredients aren't something else I'd use nor even familiar especially ones that register the ionic complex.

Have you managed to see his stool? Did you thaw the bloodworms before feeding?

Unfortunately, you'd have to separate the fish if you hope to treat it. Involving the fry and the rest especially neons will only destroy all of them. Most meds we use especially antibiotics which you will need for dropsy cases will kill your aerobic bacteria, no point doing that unless you want your tank's cycle to crash.
 
No, he doesnt appear to have pooped at all :(. I have always used RO water plus around 30% tap water in this tank with no previous apparent problems. My tap water is very very hard with high levels of nitrate (I have tested it). If I start using straight tap water now there will be a huge increase in pH and hardness which can only do more harm than good surely? Shall I just gradually increase the pH/hardness? Like adding 50% RO 50% tap and gradually upwards? I have never had a fish survive dropsy before so I am not holding out much hope but today he is much the same but still loads of colour which can only be good.

I have a problem separating the fish as my spare tank's heater has blown up, although I could always pop out and get another one but that wont be til later today. Wouldnt it stress him out more though putting him in a brand new tank with no filter bacteria established? I am thinking he is probably best left where he is.....??

I am quite surprised that you wouldnt suggest Waterlife products as I have always found them to be very effective and definitely not in the same league as Interpet. In the UK it is hard to get the same products that you would get in the USA and almost impossible to buy metronidazole over the counter so this is pretty much my best option.
 
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