Motoro Pup back to not eating

[BMac91]

So, excuse the length here, I feel it is necessary to have the backstory to accurately describe what is happening now.

I have had this little guy for close to 2 months. He came in as a wild caught peruvian motoro male, around 5-6". He was extremely malnourished, had severe ammonia burn on his belly, and was not wanting to eat any food. As a recommendation on wild caught rays, I treated with Prazi for 2 rounds, I would guess around 8 days of it being in the tank before doing daily water changes to remove it and clearing the rest with carbon.

It took me about 2-3 days before I finally got him eating chopped red worms. I started him slow with 1 or 2 worms chopped 3x a day and he was eating them but not what I would call "aggressively". Over the following 2-3 weeks, I slowly upped his daily worm intake to where he was eating 10+ worms per day, at the same time I was putting in Ghost Shrimp here and there and he was actively hunting them down and readily eating the worms as soon as the hit the bottom of the tank. Around the beginning of June I stopped giving Ghost Shrimp and tried some finely chopped, fresh market shrimp mixed in with chopped worms just to see if I could sneak them in. No bueno, he picked the worms out and left the shrimp for me to scoop out a few hours later.

So I put the market shrimp in the freezer for later and moved on to chopped frozen krill. This time around I skipped the mixing with worms part and put them straight in, he ignored them. I left them in for a few hours and removed them after he hadn't touched them. Not to be defeated by this dumb foolery I was consistent, but this time I feed WHOLE krill instead. At this point, I had already stopped chopping his worms and was just tossing them in whole and letting him figure it out, he can't expect to be babied the rest of his life, right? I have 3" tetras that will take on an adult red worm, he needed to man up! This time around he was interested and actually ate them, all of them actually and seemed to enjoy them. Fast forward 3 weeks later, we have been alternating meals of krill and red worms and/or chopped night-crawlers.

Also, I have tried to toss a few Hikari massivore and carnivore pellets in from time to time, he swims over investigates and leaves them be. About a week ago, I started back at the attempt of getting him to eat finely chopped tilapia and/or market shrimp. Both times mixed with krill or red worms. Now, however, he ignores ALL of it. Just leaves all of it floating around, will swim over to it but never actually eats it. He went Friday and Saturday without eating, and finally today he took 3 larger chopped red worms. He ignored straight krill, market shrimp, tilapia, and pellets. I fed the larger worms earlier in the day and after dinner I chopped another 3 worms and put in there, came back 3 hours later and he hadn't touched them.

Have I been too actively changing food? Do I need to stick with just worms and try to work krill back in, does he need to fast for a while?

The current tank parameters are:
81.5degrees
7.4pH
0 ammonia
0 nitrite
10 nitrate

No tankmates and is still living in his 110 gallon stock tank. I have my acrylic getting ordered for my 480 gallon tank, since my 210 gallon sprung a leak on me.
Last water change was Friday, changed around 60%.

I believe my nitrates have been higher as of late because I have been leaving the food in longer than usual. I have had a crazy couple of weeks with an off schedule at work and was hoping maybe he had gotten use to the scheduled feedings and I had thrown him off. Doesn't seem to be the case though.

Any ideas on why he might be acting funny all of the sudden? I am hoping to get my new tank built by the end of July and get him moved shortly after. I am hoping to get him a friend in the months that follow, but that will not be in the immediate future and more towards Oct/Nov if I had to guess and I would like to have him relaxed and aggressively eating a variety of things before that.

Also, I was hoping to bulk him up this week, as I am leaving on Friday and will not be back until Monday, so was hoping he could have a good week of eating. It appears as though he has different plans.

 

[SHARK13]

My advice is get the uneaten food out asap. If a ray is uninterested when it's fresh, it won't be interested after its nasty 3 hours later.. It's creating ammonia for sure. Which will cause a ray to not eat. Unless you have a very heavy bio filter you are creating mini ammonia spikes. As far as switching food, yes I personally think you are switching it up too quickly. For a badly malnourished wild ray you need to find what it eats best, which in this case is worms and ghost shrimp and only feed those until it puts some serious weight on.. Only then would I go about introducing new food. You cannot expect a wild ray to take to frozen or pellets in just a month or less.
When I was trying to get my wild female to eat pellets I fattened her up so much for several months she looked prego and didn't feed anything but pellets for a month. It took her close to a month to give in. However, this method is not advised in your situation or on any young rays.

 

[BMac91]

As I was typing this out, I was thinking it was a little fast for the changes.
I am hesitant to feed Ghost Shrimp as I am pretty sure they brought it camallanus worms last time I had them. I posted a thread a few weeks back that I never got any responses to, but I cleaned out one of the sponge filters in this tank in a bowl earlier and saw a good amount of tiny wiggling worms. The rays poop has been completely normal, so I am not sure if they can be affected by these worms or not. I noticed them weeks ago and have been doing large water changes and not feeding Ghost Shrimp in hopes of them dying off without having a fish body to live in. I am actually fishless cycling completely new media in hopes of getting rid of anything nasty that has come up in the tanks (camallanus worms, ich, etc.) in the last few weeks.

 

[Ihsnshaik]

My motoro pup will not eat shrimp at all only talipia and earth worms. I had them eat it and throw it back out the shrimp. I tried a few times and didn't take it. I have them only on talipia. I tried pellets as well but no go on that

 

[SHARK13]

As I was typing this out, I was thinking it was a little fast for the changes.
I am hesitant to feed Ghost Shrimp as I am pretty sure they brought it camallanus worms last time I had them. I posted a thread a few weeks back that I never got any responses to, but I cleaned out one of the sponge filters in this tank in a bowl earlier and saw a good amount of tiny wiggling worms. The rays poop has been completely normal, so I am not sure if they can be affected by these worms or not. I noticed them weeks ago and have been doing large water changes and not feeding Ghost Shrimp in hopes of them dying off without having a fish body to live in. I am actually fishless cycling completely new media in hopes of getting rid of anything nasty that has come up in the tanks (camallanus worms, ich, etc.) in the last few weeks.

I'm not really trying to advocate ghost shrimp here. Typically people only use them for a few feeding to get wilds onto crawlers. I would personally just go right for chopped crawlers. You will put weight on rays in no time with crawlers.

 

[CANAMONSTER]

Ya feed worms, let him go a day with out food then pound the worms on him and fatten him up. Why so against worms?

 

[Jesseliu13]

here are a couple things i'd suggest with new pups as i have had insane amounts of experience with them dying. not proud of it but i'd be happy to help prevent others from having this issue. a couple things -

all are experience and opinion. breeders feel free to chime in.

Lower your temperature. 81 seems a bit high. Higher temperature means higher metabolism but i think its not something that would be considered comfortable. high 70s are the general temperature. i keep my rays all at 78 now.
Next is the feeding. I have lost over 5 pups (store bought) by trying to convert too early. Some people are willing to take the risk, some arent. At 5-6 inches it still means its within a year. I highly suggest feeding worms as others have as well. Possibly silver sides IF it takes it. If not then keep with the worms and safe the silversides for another day.
Type of worm -
I have noticed a few things about the worms we feed from some experience. Red wrigglers/tiger worms are generally of the bottom choice of worms that rays decided to eat. Night crawlers seem to work best. I am not sure if its possibly because of their diet or taste but from my experience, red wriggers are not exactly 100% accepted as Night crawler. I feel this is from their diet. IF you are getting red wrigglers from petstores, they get their from worm farms. They are fed cheaply with newspapers, papers, cardboard, and w.e vegetable/fruit scrap. This is because its cheap foods. I feel that possibly from things they eat, the taste of the worm may be altered by their diet. Night crawlers are generally farmed in the same way, but their diet may be a a bit different. i have noticed most night crawlers farmed are deeper in soil while the reds are surface worms. They may be actually ingesting true compost and dirt giving them a more natural food source so their taste may be more satisfying to yoru ray. I have 2 worms farm composters. 1 with night crawlers, 1 with red wigglers. Red wigglers breed quicker and are easier to breed but grow smaller. night crawlers i rarely seem them up on the surface so i normally feed them in the soil by burrying their food deep (bananas).

So try changing the worms. see if it helps. or bloodworms. they are expensive and really not that nutritional but hey, if it eats it, its more food in it's belly.

Next is the other things you feed - tilapia in particular. I have never been a fan of tilapia. I do not eat it myself and i have made a post on it here on MFK a while back. Tilapia is NOT a good fish. flat out bad for you and POSSIBLY your fish. farm raised, horrible conditions (close to feeders, if not close) and my rays do not take it fiercly. I am biased against it but many feed it as a staple. Next is the krill. if you are getting sanfransico bay's krill or any frozen packaged krills you'll noticed that the krill is red. This is a general indicator the flesh of the krill is "cooked" in a way. either from immediate death where the flesh has begun to die, or begun to rigor. I have never had a fish that enjoyed cooked fish. let alone shrimp (some people feed it no problem, but i never had any fish eat them). You'd prob be better off buying frozen market shrimp/prawn. When you buy them and peel them you'd notice their flesh still is raw colored unless you wash with warm water (cooking it). i feel fish would accept that much more than krill. atleast mine does. As for pellets, your feeding the right stuff, probably just not at the right time. i didnt get my rays from vamptrev on pellets until litterally a week ago. i had the damn pup since december. and i got mine at 5 inches. so you have have to be more patient.

Other than that. good luck!

 

[BMac91]

Ya feed worms, let him go a day with out food then pound the worms on him and fatten him up. Why so against worms?

I am not against the worms, truthfully when I kicked over to krill was when I ran out of worms and the place I was getting worms from was currently out. This being my first ray, I really wasn't sure how important a varied diet was early on either, which is where the ambition of new foods came into play. I have never dealt with "picky eaters" in the aquarium hobby, have always had fish that would attempt to eat a turkey leg if I threw it in there, so I am definitely trying to build up more patience for it. I imagine this is similar to how parents feel when their kids won't eat lol

Lower your temperature. 81 seems a bit high. Higher temperature means higher metabolism but i think its not something that would be considered comfortable. high 70s are the general temperature. i keep my rays all at 78 now.

Type of worm -
I have noticed a few things about the worms we feed from some experience. Red wrigglers/tiger worms are generally of the bottom choice of worms that rays decided to eat. Night crawlers seem to work best. I am not sure if its possibly because of their diet or taste but from my experience, red wriggers are not exactly 100% accepted as Night crawler. I feel this is from their diet. IF you are getting red wrigglers from petstores, they get their from worm farms. They are fed cheaply with newspapers, papers, cardboard, and w.e vegetable/fruit scrap. This is because its cheap foods. I feel that possibly from things they eat, the taste of the worm may be altered by their diet. Night crawlers are generally farmed in the same way, but their diet may be a a bit different. i have noticed most night crawlers farmed are deeper in soil while the reds are surface worms. They may be actually ingesting true compost and dirt giving them a more natural food source so their taste may be more satisfying to yoru ray. I have 2 worms farm composters. 1 with night crawlers, 1 with red wigglers. Red wigglers breed quicker and are easier to breed but grow smaller. night crawlers i rarely seem them up on the surface so i normally feed them in the soil by burrying their food deep (bananas).

So try changing the worms. see if it helps. or bloodworms. they are expensive and really not that nutritional but hey, if it eats it, its more food in it's belly.

Next is the other things you feed - tilapia in particular. I have never been a fan of tilapia. I do not eat it myself and i have made a post on it here on MFK a while back. Tilapia is NOT a good fish. flat out bad for you and POSSIBLY your fish. farm raised, horrible conditions (close to feeders, if not close) and my rays do not take it fiercly. I am biased against it but many feed it as a staple. Next is the krill. if you are getting sanfransico bay's krill or any frozen packaged krills you'll noticed that the krill is red. This is a general indicator the flesh of the krill is "cooked" in a way. either from immediate death where the flesh has begun to die, or begun to rigor. I have never had a fish that enjoyed cooked fish. let alone shrimp (some people feed it no problem, but i never had any fish eat them). You'd prob be better off buying frozen market shrimp/prawn. When you buy them and peel them you'd notice their flesh still is raw colored unless you wash with warm water (cooking it). i feel fish would accept that much more than krill. atleast mine does. As for pellets, your feeding the right stuff, probably just not at the right time. i didnt get my rays from vamptrev on pellets until litterally a week ago. i had the damn pup since december. and i got mine at 5 inches. so you have have to be more patient.

Other than that. good luck!

Thanks for the tips. On the temperature thing, I kept reading that the normal range was between 80-82 for these guys, I was hoping that the higher temp would increase his food intake as well. Previously I had the tank @ 79 degrees and he was pretty dorment, he became a little more active when I increased it slowly over a couple of days. I will do a bit more looking into the temp thing, eventually he will have tank mates again and the tankmates he will have will prefer to be in that 80-81 degree range as well.

Worm type, I have tried nightcrawlers sparingly, but he doesn't seem to take to them like he does to reds. For instance, during the time he was actively feeding on worms, he would pick out the reds and leave a few pieces of nightcrawler behind. They just don't seem to do it for him.

And I am actually going to do the same with some worm composters, figure if worms are going to be his diet for the forseeable future, I will go ahead and invest in them. I do not want to keep spending $3.50 on a box of 30 when I can order 2000 for $30.

 

[moosemj]

Just stick with it. Pull out uneaten food, or add a tank mate that will aid in cleaning it up. If something works, stick with it occasionally mixing I. Some thing else with it. With time they will start taking different foods.

 

[Jesseliu13]

I am not against the worms, truthfully when I kicked over to krill was when I ran out of worms and the place I was getting worms from was currently out. This being my first ray, I really wasn't sure how important a varied diet was early on either, which is where the ambition of new foods came into play. I have never dealt with "picky eaters" in the aquarium hobby, have always had fish that would attempt to eat a turkey leg if I threw it in there, so I am definitely trying to build up more patience for it. I imagine this is similar to how parents feel when their kids won't eat lol




Thanks for the tips. On the temperature thing, I kept reading that the normal range was between 80-82 for these guys, I was hoping that the higher temp would increase his food intake as well. Previously I had the tank @ 79 degrees and he was pretty dorment, he became a little more active when I increased it slowly over a couple of days. I will do a bit more looking into the temp thing, eventually he will have tank mates again and the tankmates he will have will prefer to be in that 80-81 degree range as well.

Worm type, I have tried nightcrawlers sparingly, but he doesn't seem to take to them like he does to reds. For instance, during the time he was actively feeding on worms, he would pick out the reds and leave a few pieces of nightcrawler behind. They just don't seem to do it for him.

And I am actually going to do the same with some worm composters, figure if worms are going to be his diet for the forseeable future, I will go ahead and invest in them. I do not want to keep spending $3.50 on a box of 30 when I can order 2000 for $30.

If that is the case then stick with the reds. though i suggest you get bigger reds than the normal varient as they soon will be understocked even for a worm farm of 2000. a worm farm of 2000 becomes 20 in less than a week when the rays get to around 9-10 inches. I got my super red worms from uncle jim. they are much larger than the small red wigglers.