Blk Worms VS Red Wigglers VS Canadian Nightcrawlers - Here are the answers.

CrAzYNeSs

Candiru
MFK Member
Sep 17, 2009
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Hello everyone, :D

I wanted to share some interesting finds about the aforementioned topic. Many people suggest using worms to feed their rays and the most often three that are mentioned are the red wigglers (Eisenia fetida), California Blackworms (Lumbriculus variegatus) & Canadian Nightcrawlers (Lumbricus terrestris). I have actually used all of them and this is what I have discovered and observed.

I use to purchase red wigglers in bulk (1 or 2 lbs at a time) from my local vermi-composting company. I would put them in my Rubbermaid homemade "worm-bin" and perform feedings of organic vegetable matter. I would pull 12-15 of them out on a daily basis when I needed to feed them to my rays. What I observed is that during the minor handling, they would emit a foul smell. Obviously, I wanted to perform some research because I did not want it to be caused by something that my supplier was feeding. He assured me that everything fed was pet friendly and safe for animal consumption. I did some further research and discovered that the smell is thought to be a defense mechanism - heck it is even in their names. Fetida is latin for fetid, which I am sure you all know means "offensive odor."

Anyways, as I would drop them in for the rays to eat - I found that they were reluctant to pounce on them. They would leave the worms alone for at least 15-20 minutes before trying to consume them but not without further reluctance. I imagine that it had something to do with the fetidness from the worms. I also not sure about the effects that this chemical excretion has on the water as well.

Another rather large negative "no-no" for me, was the fact that the E. fetida also consume manure.

For the longest time, the only food source for my rays have been the California Blackworms. We all know that rays love this item - it always comes in highly suggested for newly imported rays or stubborn rays. Yep, they sure do love them. In fact, too much. It has been nearly impossible to convert them to eating other foods. I would suggest that once you get your ray eating, switch them off immediately. These worms require round the clock refrigeration and recommended often cleanings (daily is best). Let me tell you, they are not easy to clean despite the worm keepers. Blackworm keepers (6" x 6" x 3") only hold about 6 oz of worms each, as listed on their website. I honestly think the listed 6 oz is a little over generous, because I found the optimum amount for these worm keepers to be around 3-4 oz at most. What this means for the average consumer with an average sized "side by side" refrigerator - it can only hold about four (4) keepers per level. This is only about 1 lb of worms and I don't know about you but that is space that I can really use. Not to mention having to wash out four containers on a daily basis. This was a PAIN to say the least, because if you do not clean them you are in for smells much worse than our other fetid friends. All this plus the risk of possible waterborne diseases introduced into our aquarium(s). Anyone who has used them before knows that they are not 100% or even 80% safe. With predatory leeches in almost every bag it makes you wonder what else could be floating around in there.

Recently I have switched over to the Canadian Nightcrawlers and feel that they are a MUCH better alternative. Not only do they not emit any foul smelling odors, the rays pounce on them when I drop them in. The only real negatives I can think of is their potentially larger size and the need for refrigeration. They need to stay in tempratures below 65F (18C), at essentially all times - obviously not a problem if you live in colder climates. However, the larger size is also a positive depending on how you look at it. You can effectively use them as vessels for stuffing other foods (i.e. pellets) that you wish to train your rays to eat.

I can fit about 150 nightcrawlers into a standard shoebox sized plastic container; easily 3+ lbs. Greatest thing about them is that they can store in their for a around two months and only need their bedding tossed every 2-3 weeks.

To sum it all up, I feel that the Canadian Nightcrawlers are a much better form of food for the rays, if not for all other aquatic species of fish large enough to consume them, compared to the other counterparts. All the previous accounts are all from personal firsthand experience and not from hearsay. Take what you will from it, but please keep this thread clean and on-topic. This could be beneficial to many new keepers or individuals who are in the process of choosing live feed.

Best Regards,
Jeff
 

skynoch

Fire Eel
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Jan 14, 2007
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Nice post. Red worms to me are a waste of time and money for rays. As another alternative look to european nightcrawlers as a smaller size (about half the size of canadian nightcrawler). They can be kept in warmer temps, will be able to reproduce in a home situation and can survive underwater for alot longer period than canadian nightcrawlers. These will be better for newly aquaired rays and very small rays. I start feeding full canadian nightcrawlers usually 2-3 months at most after a ray is born and cut up pieces after 1-2 weeks after birth. Just a note rays will pounce on freshly cut worms due to the blood faster than a whole worm.
 

coyotethug

Gambusia
MFK Member
Sep 3, 2005
551
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There are so many people that have this negative thought about blackworms, but I would like to clear a few things up. First, they don't need to be kept refrigerated at all times, just in well oxygenated water that is clean. Refrigeration will slow their metabolism as well as allow a greater amount of oxygen to disolve in the water. I put 4 oz in my 240 with my ray pups the next day after they were shipped in. I have no other fish in the tank as of yet, but it is filtered with 2 110 aquaclears and 1 Lifegaurd 900 fluidized bed filter. The substrate is 250 lbs of pool filter sand which has worked out great. The extra worms that were not consumed live in the cracks of the rocks and in the sandbed with their anterior end sticking from the sand. The rays forage on them constantly and even suck them from the cracks between the few large river stone piles I have in the tank.

I didn't go at this blind, as some of you may think. I teach a Marine Biology class at the high school level. We have been culturing these worms for 3 years now at room temerature without any problems. I have them in 3-20 gallon long tanks with very large sponge filters. They are fed trout chow that is soaked in water or algae wafers. Balancing the amount of food you give them is the only key. Well kept, they can double their population every 2 months. I keep them in fry rearing tanks to clean up detritus and old food without harming baby fish. When the fish get big enough, they simple become food.

Red worms are also a breeze to culture, but I haven't tried feeding them off yet to rays, just cichlids and cory cats who both love baby ones. We have turned 50 of them into thousands in two fish boxes simply feeding them oatmeal and veggie scraps.

You are correct in that they are hard to wean from. I have been feeding them to my rays for a couple of weeks now and now that everyone is fat and eating well, I need to switch them over to shrimp. In southern Louisiana shrimp are cheap, and are probably the best choice for a primary food source. I also plan on adding worms, squid, and crawfish once they are actively feeding and large enough.

Any ideas on weaning them? Presently I am chopping up shrimp and mixing with chopped nightcrawlers to hopefully get them interested. Two days of trying so far and no takers yet.
 

CrAzYNeSs

Candiru
MFK Member
Sep 17, 2009
962
10
48
Here.
coyotethug;3967666; said:
There are so many people that have this negative thought about blackworms, but I would like to clear a few things up. First, they don't need to be kept refrigerated at all times, just in well oxygenated water that is clean. Refrigeration will slow their metabolism as well as allow a greater amount of oxygen to disolve in the water. I put 4 oz in my 240 with my ray pups the next day after they were shipped in. I have no other fish in the tank as of yet, but it is filtered with 2 110 aquaclears and 1 Lifegaurd 900 fluidized bed filter. The substrate is 250 lbs of pool filter sand which has worked out great. The extra worms that were not consumed live in the cracks of the rocks and in the sandbed with their anterior end sticking from the sand. The rays forage on them constantly and even suck them from the cracks between the few large river stone piles I have in the tank.

I didn't go at this blind, as some of you may think. I teach a Marine Biology class at the high school level. We have been culturing these worms for 3 years now at room temerature without any problems. I have them in 3-20 gallon long tanks with very large sponge filters. They are fed trout chow that is soaked in water or algae wafers. Balancing the amount of food you give them is the only key. Well kept, they can double their population every 2 months. I keep them in fry rearing tanks to clean up detritus and old food without harming baby fish. When the fish get big enough, they simple become food.

Red worms are also a breeze to culture, but I haven't tried feeding them off yet to rays, just cichlids and cory cats who both love baby ones. We have turned 50 of them into thousands in two fish boxes simply feeding them oatmeal and veggie scraps.

You are correct in that they are hard to wean from. I have been feeding them to my rays for a couple of weeks now and now that everyone is fat and eating well, I need to switch them over to shrimp. In southern Louisiana shrimp are cheap, and are probably the best choice for a primary food source. I also plan on adding worms, squid, and crawfish once they are actively feeding and large enough.

Any ideas on weaning them? Presently I am chopping up shrimp and mixing with chopped nightcrawlers to hopefully get them interested. Two days of trying so far and no takers yet.
You are absolutely right, but the average consumer like myself usually just house them temporarily which is why I chose to use the fridge. I, like yourself, have put some in my fry tank and had great results. The main reason for slightly frowning upon blackworms is because I view them as a possible vector for disease. Unlike yourself, many including myself, purchase them from suppliers on a monthly or bi-monthly basis. I am not sure how these worms are kept prior to being delivered to me and if waterborne diseases and pests are even one of their top concerns. Despite what they proclaim on their website, I consistently find other "contaminants" like the predatory leeches in batches of blkworms received (if you haven't, look carefully). I imagine this is not a big problem for you because you cultivate them yourself and know the source and/or problems that may or might afflict your tank(s). I know that I can not eliminate disease from a tank, but I would like to try to minimize vectors as much as possible.

I love how you cultivate the blackworms yourself, but for people who want to keep it stupid simple (K.I.S.S.) with minimal to no care - earthworms are a great source of live food meeting the outlined specifics.

As for weening them off of blkworms, I just starved my fat/plump pups for a day or two. After that I throw in some chopped up nightcrawlers and they loved it. Next phase I am going to implement is stuffing the chopped segments with shrimp or pellets. I have heard many great results with the aforementioned method.

Here is a sticky that has many other methods outlined as well. Hope this helps:
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280492

BTW - thank you both for your insightful input.
 

coyotethug

Gambusia
MFK Member
Sep 3, 2005
551
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Michigan
Thanks a ton, a lot of great ideas for weaning them off blackworms. I will continue to fatten them up for a while before I try to switch them over. It is too warm here to raise either canadian or european nightcrawlers. Have you heard anything about african nightcrawlers. They are supposed to be easy to cultivate and can take the higher temps we get around here. I am thinking of building a new vermicomposting bin and starting to propagate them this summer.
 

omojena

Candiru
MFK Member
Jan 22, 2008
866
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48
nj
some blackworm breeding facilities feed the worms runoff from chicken farms. this means blackworms are eating chicken poo....

just nasty!
 

mos90

Feeder Fish
MFK Member
Jul 20, 2009
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i hate having to chop up the nightcrawlers before feeding. id love for my rays to eat krill. its easy and fairly inexpensive.

as far as the blackworms. i rinse them once a day and keep them in wormkeepers at 45 deg. 6oz per keeper. they seem to last at least 3 weeks. like crazy said though, can be very difficult to get them eating other food. mine wont even look at anything else at this point and ive only been feeding blackworms for 6 weeks or so.

i have so much variation of food that i feed i may have to start a weekly log. :D live feeders for payara, blackworms for rays, sticks and krill for arow, krill and pellets for geos, flake and brine for angels, live baby brine for angel fry.. im loosing my mind.
 

John7429

Candiru
MFK Member
Jun 9, 2008
350
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Fullerton, CA
European nightcrawlers don't need to be refridgerated like the Canadians while sharing all the pros you mentioned above. I like them best.
 

coyotethug

Gambusia
MFK Member
Sep 3, 2005
551
4
16
47
Michigan
Started eating shrimp yesterday without having to starve them. I started thawing the shrimp in the blackworm holding container and feeding them chopped shrimp. Along with still foraging they have eaten one 25-30ct shrimp chopped each of the last two days split amongst the three of them. Still a pretty shy when the lights come on, but they are getting fat and starting to calm down a lot. I have a tigrinis waiting to be moved in with them when they are nice and settled in, should be some time next week at this rate.

Thanks for all your help.
 

spotfin

Silver Tier VIP
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Jan 2, 2006
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I have noticed too that the red wrigglers are rather smelly. I feed them to my rays on occasion, but only 2 of my rays eat them with gusto. One other ray will eat maybe one worm, and another ray won't eat them at all.

Where is a good place to find european crawlers?
 
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