Naturally occurring hybrids

[Stanzzzz7]

Just wondering how people feel about natural hybrids. Personally I don't like hybrids.
Macracanthus and zonatus have been known to cross naturally in the wild,the fish have been sold as veija macracanthus. Is this something the purist can look at as a natural part of evolution or just another hybrid.
I think I would be more inclined to keep these than any man made hybrid as it's part of natural selection.

 

[vinod_uthaiah]

Not to derail or supporting any faction.... Even if it is a man made hybrid... The fish decided to go ahead with their task , not like man forced it by altering any conditions.... Can the condition be viewed like this

 

[Stanzzzz7]

I think there is a big difference in two wild fish in nature deciding to mate than two fish plonked in a fish tank together with no other pairing options.
The fish in the Rio jaltepec have the option of mating with their own kind,captive pairs don't.

 

[vinod_uthaiah]

I think there is a big difference in two wild fish in nature deciding to mate than two fish plonked in a fish tank together with no other pairing options.
The fish in the Rio jaltepec have the option of mating with their own kind,captive pairs don't.

Hmmm ... Thought long .... Kinda agree to the fact of being plonked together without any pairing options. Totally agree

 

[dan518]

I think it depends, if both fish are naturally from that area I see no problem and would put it more into evolution then hybridisation, amphilophus sagittae have been witnessed breeding with other amphilophus sp by William heijns. Another case is h carpintis and h labridens breeding together, but carpintis where introduced by man, these I would call hybrids.

 

[dan518]

William heijns has written a very good article on hybridisation well worth a read

 

[dogofwar]

Hybridization is a natural mechanism for speciation (evolution), so it's happened and happening no matter how we feel about it.

That said, man-made changes to ecosystems - for example, canals in Media Luna, MX that allowed Labridens and carpintis to be introduced and breed - are bad: Labridens, as evolved over millions of years, will be gone.

I think that people get way too worked up about hybrids in the aquarium hobby - fancy fish have and likely always will be the foundation of the hobby. And trying to split hairs of whether fancy fish are derived from only line breeding the same species or mixing different species is simply not possible.

It's also really important to differentiate the part of the hobby that's creating quality fancy fish vs. indiscriminate breeding.

The bottom line is that vs. shaking our fists at the 99% of fishkeepers who could care less about provenance and "purity" of stock that the handful who do care should maintain stock as authetic to nature as possible

Matt

 

[duanes]

In nature a hybrid will need to go through the "survival of the fittest" gauntlet, everything from birds and other predators, to the microbiological pathogens, and temperature or other variations of its habitat, before it passes on those mixed genes. In tanks there is no such challenge. Culling can help, but as Matt said, the indiscriminent hybridizing hobbyist often doesn't have the stomach to cull, or is too eager to sell before anomalies even show up, and LFSs end up selling unrecognizable and substandard individuals, that in the end pollute the market.
It is thought that many Central American cichlids are descendants and ultimately crossing in and out of Cichlasoma woodringi, a basal ancestral species whose fossil remains date back 25 million years in Haiti. But the all those Central American cichlids living today made it through the survival of the fittest gauntlet, or went extinct in the process.

 

[PYRU]

This kind of reminds me of RD's midevil discussion. I personally don't keep hybrids, but I'm also not critical about them. If its in the wild and has went through the gauntlet mentioned above. Then that's just nature, but the mislabeling part intentional/unintentional is what I don't like about the whole deal.

I may be wrong, but I thought hybridization in the wild was an extremely rare occurrence. So a true wild hybrid would be a true form of evolution. I'm not an expert on this subject by any means.

 

[dogofwar]

This discussion jumbles several issues:

1) Is hybridization a natural form of speciation? Yes
2) Does hybridization occur in nature? Yes - both for natural and non-natural (e.g. man changes the habitat) reasons
3) Is it OK for aquarists to keep and breed "wild" hybrids (e.g. carpintis x yellow labs from Media Luna)? Sure - just so they're properly labeled
4) Is it OK for aquarists to keep and breed hybrid cichlids? Sure - just so they're properly labeled

That fish hybridize in nature doesn't have anything to do with the morals or ethics of doing it in a fish tank.

I would argue that it's not possible to ensure that fish in the aquarium trade - whether hybrid, "pure" or somewhere in between - are properly labeled. Most people who keep fish couldn't care less - they want pretty, interesting, cheap fish.

It is up to the small contingent who care to maintain provenance of their fish (e.g. collection location, source, etc.) to maintain known, "pure", well-identified lines vs. expecting the broader fish hobby to do this (or to not keep and breed fancy fish).

Matt