Salminus Franciscanus (Golden Dorado)

[kendragon]

Reedmaster16 and kendragon this is why I think many of us enjoy kens threads and mfk. Always seem to learn something. They continue to help others and are informative.

Gee thanks.

There are NO 2 peope on this entire site that I can thank more then Kendragon and Reedmaster16 for my current progress on making my filtration better.......

Can't think of any 2 guys I'd enjoy talking filtration with more..... Both of you have taught me so much over the years......

Can't thank you guys enough.

Now back to listening to you 2........

haha...I only helped you with UV analysis a long time ago. Please chime in with your experience as well.

I want to hear what Ken's thinking first.
But with stingrays - my general mindset has always been to remove as much waste as possible from the water column ASAP. Their metabolism and waste production leads to DOC buildup faster than other fish. Primary reason why changing water more frequently is a requirement. Physically removing bad dissolved organics from water column with the water change. Which could make the growth and balance of anaerobic ammonia & nitrite oxidizing bacteria more difficult to sustain?
Also less margin for error the smaller the volume of water.

Hold on....I'm typing as fast as I can. No fair. Two ray guys against me.

 

[kendragon]

Great overview Reed.
I apologize for not bringing sump into this discussion. Sorry, I'm a pond guy that deal mostly with closed loop systems.

History of our journey:
A few years back, Reedmaster16 , H HULON , cigars , C Chicxulub and I were messing around with a glass filter. Same as a sand filter but filled with crushed glass. The idea is to use water change water to backwash the filter. We all got different results due to the different fish and load we put through the filter.
As the hobby evolved, less maintenance became key. Popularity of the K1 reactors and bead filter (Ultima) grew.

kendragon's observations:
In the koi hobby where I started, color, size, and conformation are show winners.
Like MFK, the filters evolved. Over a 20 years period, I've noticed differences in kois based on the filter used. As I mentioned earlier, the simple traditional in-pond filters produced better looking and healthier kois. Several members resemble this effort (duanes and TLkmDN).

What is a traditional in-pond filter?:
It is simply gravel with flow pulled through it. I've seen them in a pit and even spread over the bottom of the pond.
Where there is flow you will find aerobic bacteria and dead spots with no flow, anaerobic bacteria.
So one should not be so quick to discount under gravel or sponge filters. Just remember that the media is held in a large volume of water and not in a reactor.

Balance (as Reed mentioned):
I do believe that bacteria colony will grow to the level it is fed. So the filter should be big enough to support growth. Some filters are great for juvi state but once they get to monster size trouble starts.....filter crashes. Many filters are great for nitrite but on the flip side are nitrate farms. One must figure a way to balance this.

kendragon's theory:
Monster fish can grow bigger, healthier and more colorful with the use of anaerobic bacteria.
There are reactors and magic beads that grow anaerobic bacteria on the market but I wish to mimic what I know about koi ponds.
Is bacteria sensitive to light? Yes, so I have a closed chamber.
Is bacteria sensitive to oxygen? Yes, so I have a high flow through the aerobic media but bypasses the anaerobic media.
Does filter cleaning stress the fish? I believe so. Chamber is never backwashed. High flow keeps the media clean. Backwashing will disturb the anaerobic area. Pump is never turned off, even for WC. Tank water volume is small so what's in the tank the fish will feel right away.
I do not have a drip system because I believe the filter should do all the work. I do not prefilter because feeding pellets minimizes waste and besides you can't separate fish urine. All comes back to eliminating NITRATE. Keep in mind....I'm only speaking for fish not rays. Reed or ray guys can chime in on rays.

Porous ceramic media should maintain thin film on the surface to allow the lower oxygen center (anaerobic) to react with the water if it is to be used as a two in one media.
Like Reed said, hard to believe crashing shower (high in oxygen) will allow anaerobic growth. Theoretically, the center sees no flow so no oxygen enters but still sits in water. Very important to keep the surface clean in order for the center to work. So do you stack them stream wise?

I will show pics of my filter later.

Thoughts?

 

[Reedmaster16]

Some filters are great for juvi state but once they get to monster size trouble starts.....filter crashes.

Stingray Related
This is what we see all the time with filtration setups in the stingray world. Everyone's rays are fine for a year or so until filter crash/disease from DOC buildup or something similar. No one realizes the dramatic increase in ammonia levels as a ray grows from pup -> juvenile -> adult. Ammonia production for elasmobranch seems faster than fish/koi perhaps due to metabolism/activity level (no data to backup just personal opinion).
Two facts with research behind them:

Ammonia constitutes approximately 70% of the nitrogenous wastes excreted by aquatic organisms (Ross and Ross, 1999).
Elasmobranchs are hyperosmotic to their environment an elevated NH4 + concentration may induce or further promote acidosis (Murru, 1990).​

Feeding rates are a good starting point for initial ammonia production and minimum bio media volume required. Ammonia conversion rates for specific media types is readily available and useful data when looking to achieve balance.

Ken's comment about urine is a great point to bring up. Removal of solid wastes (feces/leftover food/detritus) is achievable many ways. The majority of ammonia is primarily excreted across gill membrane. For stingrays, this is why I'm always preaching mechanical to remove as much solid waste possible from water column ASAP. Plenty of ammonia is produced you can't filter out mechanically so get out any extra sources you can. The core starting point of bio calculation needs is feeding volumes but that should just be the minimum.

Many filters are great for nitrite but on the flip side are nitrate farms. One must figure a way to balance this.

This is the tough question for sure. The varied types of bacteria performing different function in the nitrification cycle.

One good note to highlight from Norm Meck's Water Chemistry Article is:
the bacteria that carries out nitrite to nitrate conversion receive considerably less energy from this conversion process than the bacteria carrying out the ammonia to nitrite conversion process. They are not as hardy and tend to be last to come, first to go when problem occurs within bio-converter (Meck 1996).

Your point on the importance of establishing healthy anaerobic bacteria seems essential in creating a balance and reducing fluctuations in the artificial ecosystem fishkeepers build in their tanks/ponds.

Theoretically, the center sees no flow so no oxygen enters but still sits in water. Very important to keep the surface clean in order for the center to work. So do you stack them stream wise?

I could be way off but by stacking ceramics I immediately pictured something like this. Fully submerged but with channels large enough for water to take path of least resistance, without being forced through porous section or bypassing completely. Keeping surface clean with flow alone seems possible assuming you can minimize solids. Or if outside of the porous media was coated with something to make it smooth for water to pass over & limit drag. Gradual breakdown of something like ceramics may come into play but I'm not sure.



Should you stress importance of mechanical even more, with a setup like this to slow the surface buildup of waste?

=====

Side Thoughts
I've read a little on heterotroph bacteria and their ability to consume algae via aerobic bacterial decomp. Filter size would be an issue for most to support colonies of this bacteria. And I don't know if they consume all types of dead organic matter or just specific algae related ones.

 

[DB junkie]

haha...I only helped you with UV analysis a long time ago. Please chime in with your experience as well.

That may be the only direct contact we've had, but I've soaked up some of your contributions to this hobby through some of our common friends.......

My experience is I continue to loose rays and have not figured out why.

No secret I have hard water. I have constantly fought with fellow raykeepers over the "run whatever you have coming out of the faucet, your fish will get used to it "mentality. IF I had their water I would run it too, but I don't, I have hard water with PH closer to 9 then 8.

When I moved I lost like half the fish I had. Most of the setups were moved right from the other house like 8 miles away. I was able to save some by turning on the RO and walking away. After turning a few around I gave up on tap and have been running a RO/Tap premix -aged and heated.

Since I was storing water anyways I ventured into the backflush style filters. I'm playing hell trying to adapt the systems I'm used to running to these filters. Still building and have my biggest tank on the way into the house.... I'm looking for direction for this build. I do NOT have the room to play around with the radial flow seperator (rfs) concept I so enjoyed at the last house.

I have some filtration pics but didn't know if we wanted to continue all this in a new thread or continue going here.... I'm really proud of my wet/dry bio reactower..... They were the back bone of my most ttrouble free system.

From what I've gathered so far -

Relying on moving beds could be VERY bad. Best to utilize multiple sources of bio media to insure supplying environments for BOTH kinds of bacteria.

Drip systems sound like a glorified bandaid for human laziness.

We all agree get the poo out quick as possible - BUT there seems to be multiple ways of doing this - My question - IS it possible that running the crap through a pump prior to filtering able to yield the same or potentially better results then catching via gravity feed like filter socks or a radial flow separator?

 

[suckerfish]

Same photos and same fish gets old so I like to shoot for a year of keeping them. There is no set time so if something pops up, I may jump ship.

View attachment 1305988

The dorado are almost as pretty as your hands! How do you keep them so supple, working on outdoor ponds?
Loving the filtration convo, remembering and learning a lot. Thanks

 

[kendragon]

The dorado are almost as pretty as your hands! How do you keep them so supple, working on outdoor ponds?
Loving the filtration convo, remembering and learning a lot. Thanks

I'm going to go with my friend Dloks ' response.
"Do you really want to know? You should see my right hand"

 

[kendragon]

DB junkie , Reedmaster16

Wow! You guys have some serious issues. j/k

I believe we are in agreement that nitrate is an issue that should be dealt with and most of our effort thus far are to bypassing it.

Norm Meck is a very knowledgeable person when it comes to water quality. I have spoken to him many times till his passing. Interestingly, Norm documented that nitrate have been reported to improve color. This observation was noted in circa 1996-2000 prior to the new generation of filter technology. With my recent observations it is not so much the nitrate but the existence of anaerobics that I feel aid in fish color and growth.

I'm with you on removing waste prior to the conversion and that is why we screwed around with the glass filter which proves to be a little too labor intensive for highly loaded tanks (rays). I haven't given up on it yet but just don't have time right now.

Please note that we have two methods between us, pressurized and gravity. I posted both types of filters on koi ponds in Hulon's Ultimate Filter thread for those interested.
The sumps used of ponds are very similar to aquarium sumps. Everyone knows the pain of gravity feed and cleaning. Not to mention space. Settling chambers in my field experience are okay but not efficient and that goes the same for vortex. It has to be really big or flow has to be really slow. So slow that it not can't pull crap out of the pond quick enough. With space as a limiting factor, I have removed more junk out of ponds with pressurized cartridges than anything else. Like socks, the paper elements clog quick. Many run tight weave to trap more but in reality slows the flow and trap less. On a few koi ponds and my mahseer pond, I run a homemade coarse cartridge which allows high flow creating a static charge and pulls more crap in to cling to the cartridge. I have this on my dorado tank too but never needed it. These guys are so easy.

Ray guys:
K1 reactor for high aerobic to tackle sudden high ammonia and nitrite - I get it and agree is the best.
Rays are poo poo machines not like sissy fish - Removal of solids helps reduce filter load...agree
Addressing nitrate - what? nothing?

DB, love to see your trickle tower. Just be careful, over aeration increases pH. Sounds like you already narrowed it down to pH. Like everything we talked about, there are ways to bypass issues if it can't be fixed. Totally agree that multiple medias should be utilized to accommodate different types of bacteria.

 

[cigars]

kendragon what are your thoughts of the Draco drum automated filters for the aquarium hobby? Have you ever seen one in use?

 

[kendragon]

kendragon what are your thoughts of the Draco drum automated filters for the aquarium hobby? Have you ever seen one in use?

I don't have any experience with it. Kinda takes the fun out of the hobby in my mind. I don't like the idea of mixing electrical mechanism in wet applications. Someone should try it...I may be wrong.

 

[DB junkie]

OVER areation? WTF...... I thoooooouught this concept went along with jackalopes, the boogie man, and sasquatch...... What does it take to over aerate? Like LPM of air pump vs gallon of water? Looks like I'm about a lpm / 6.5 gallons of water?

Nitrate would be addressed via water needed to backflush a couple times a week.....

My biotowereactor is on the left..... Gravity fed by you guessed it a bio reactor! Fed by a pump after a small dufflebag of ceramic rings that are after (4) 7x16 double sewns..... Some UV will be added soon but some electrical issues must be dealt with first...... Running just the bare necesseties..... A trio of 6-7" rays, and a trio of 10-15" rays alonng with a tail less Goonch on this system.....

The bio reactor in the center of the pic is a 45 gallon cube - has the better part of a 150 lpm air pump. 80 watt UV. This serves a 90 gallon sump and about 250 gallons of pup tank..... Currently home to a half dozen ray pups under 6", (7) Dorado of some sort, and a catfish around 6".