1st hand experience vs Care sheets

[jaws7777]

You know jaws7777, I have kept clown loaches for 7 years,you have kept polys for what...4 years? Both of us are arguing that the fish we keep cant exceed some stated size by someone else....We're some professionals,lol

How the heck do we know any of it for sure unless we have kept either species for their full life span in the best possible conditions? Both species can live quite long..

For the lack of sufficient experience of our own, we just choose to believe someone else, be it a person or a scientific paper. Taking a side does not make it the true side. Only time will tell.

When it comes to the accounts of majority of people that have kept p.senegalus or clown loaches,it is clear that either species rarely if ever exceeds 12 inches.

So in essence, you are singing the same song I am,but none of us is a singer..

You know,I promise myself not to take it too harshly when my clown loaches grow into big 16-17 inch monsters... I am going to have to hide after arguing the opposite for years...

Nothing i said makes me correct. Only that i dont care much for care sheets and pointed out allot of discrepancies with the seriously fish links. I bet other more experinced members can find allot more. I think ive been keeping polys for 5 yrs maybe and am far from an expert. Incorrect size is one thing but a good portion of everything else at the least is not accurate.

"How the heck do we know any of it for sure unless we have kept either species for their full life span in the best possible conditions? Both species can live quite long"

my exact point on why i trust other members (not all) over a random care sheet.

This thread wasnt started to prove right vs wrong but to end the derail on the dat thread.

 

[Coryloach]

Yes,fine. But the care sheets are too someone elses experience and research,and the contributers are often some of the most experienced and knowledgeable on the topic...someone you may have been speaking to or read their info on this forum and others.

 

[jaws7777]

Yes,fine. But the care sheets are too someone elses experience and research,and the contributers are often some of the most experienced and knowledgeable on the topic...someone you may have been speaking to or read their info on this forum and others.

True and im sure there are great care sheets out there, and no doubt they have indirectly contributed to this forum.

That doesnt change the fact that allot havent been updated in god knows how long. Wrong info can be just as bad as no info.

I was able to pick apart most of the poly links on that site in just a glance, not because im some special poly expert but because of what i learned on here. Teugs only getting 16 inches...sens getting 20. P. Endlicheri Congicus is no longer a sub species. P congicus is its own species. Scientific data thats 20 yrs old is useless to me. We learn new things all the time right ? Scientists and biologists are constantly evolving their findings. Open forums/FB can be validated. I can look back on someones prior posts and decide yeah this guy knows his stuff or is just an idiot. seriously fish....seriously sucks lol

 

[Coryloach]

It's for this exact reason that I wrote the following years ago.

Clown Loaches - Kalimantan vs Sumatra

I was asked by the admin on another forum to put the following article together and thought that some of the members here might find it interesting. Unfortunately the only real info one can find on this subject on the net...

www.monsterfishkeepers.com

The author (and admin) on loaches online decided that for whatever reason they were going to let the incorrect information on that subject stand. All that did was make them look like idjits, not experts.

At the time I started keeping clown loaches the recommended temperature by the most experienced clown loach keepers at the time was also somewhat incorrect. The majority of people were keeping them at high enough temp near 28-30C. I stuck to my guts after reading some scientific papers on artificial breeding and have kept mine at 26C for all the 7 years. So we do make choices, one way or another. I try to read all there is for the fish I keep and then decide for myself. I am sure all people that contribute on care sheets or forums have the best intentions but we're all human.

Redshark1, who is a member on both this and loaches forum, owns what are now I believe 25 years old clown loaches and from what he's said, he's also kept them at 26C. I believe he was told his are stunted, because they're well below 16 inch(below 12 inch I believe), yet he's the only one I know still posting on forums to own clown loaches that old and if anyone knows for sure if clown loaches grow to 16 inches, its him. They're still well and healthy and were always kept in a 6f tank from the very start.

 

[CrazyKoiCracker]

It depends on the source. I do see tons of inaccurate information on the mainstream care sheets, ESPECIALLY if it’s a business that is selling said animals. PetSmart/petco are horrible.
Care guides however, the like of which you can find on YouTube are generally good if you have a respected source. Cory from aquarium coop, Rachel O’Leary, and a few others can be counted on. But it’s important to view all of them you can find on a given species and cross reference them, because some may contain bits of misinformation. Example, Palmer aquatics released a poly care guide a few years back and said something along the lines of “they say not to keep them on gravel because they can get impacted, but As you can see I’m keeping mine on gravel and it’s not a problem”
And then a little while after that care guide was posted his Senegal swallowed a stone and died.
It’s very important to do as much research as you can. Even among first hand experience, several first hand accounts and opinions will always be more helpful than one.

 

[neutrino]

Either way it depends on the source. There are breeders/sellers out there that have been at it a long time, have a reputation, know what they're talking about, and I'd take their 'care sheet' seriously, especially when they give you good reasons for something. Doesn't always make everything they say gospel. What a Florida cichlid breeder does in concrete ponds or what a volume discus breeder does in 29 gal tanks doesn't always apply to my tanks in my house.

Also depends on the topic. I know (through a forum we were both on) someone who's an absolute expert on Malawi cichlids based on diving the lake for years and his own breeding operation. He's about as close to Ad Konings as you'll get except for Ad Konings. But I wouldn't take his advice on food.

If through long experience you know what you're doing, it gets easier to perceive when someone else knows what they're talking about.

 

[neutrino]

Size can be tricky. Different populations of a species might vary, also different tank habitat, feeding, lifespan in some cases, as mentioned. I lived in Colorado for ten years, did a LOT of trout fishing. It's not exaggerating to say that brook trout in one stream might run 5 inches, in another, 6-8, and then in a lake up or downstream the same exact species, same water parameters, but different habitat, could be 12-16 inches, and a few over 20 inches. I caught a 24 inch brookie in a lake I knew very well once-- I let him go.

Similar for some other species. I've done some northern pike fishing, they can be bigger in one lake than another.

Some cichlid species I've bred were super consistent in size (comparing males only), some varied by 10%, others varied more like 30%. I recently did a poll on A. rivulatus size. Some 'care sheets' say they get 12". Well, sure, it's possible but it's exceptional, like a 7ft. human. The poll and comments bore that out.

 

[RD.]

Well said, neutrino. And I agree, I wouldn't take his advice on nutrition either. lol

Redshark1, who is a member on both this and loaches forum, owns what are now I believe 25 years old clown loaches and from what he's said, he's also kept them at 26C. I believe he was told his are stunted, because they're well below 16 inch(below 12 inch I believe), yet he's the only one I know still posting on forums to own clown loaches that old and if anyone knows for sure if clown loaches grow to 16 inches, its him. They're still well and healthy and were always kept in a 6f tank from the very start.

How does keeping 5 or 6 fish from any given species, equate to that person knowing what the maximum size for that species can be? Think about it.

 

[Coryloach]

My grand kids grand kids would be waiting for that sen to hit 20" lol

Trying to find reference for the size given on seriouslyfish and fishbase, lol.

I think it is taken from the catalog of the fresh water fishes of Africa.

Link: http://horizon.documentation.ird.fr/exl-doc/pleins_textes/divers13-06/15357.pdf

The maximum size of p. senegalus recorded in that catalog is 505mm and the maximum size of senegalus meridiolUllis, which some think are the same fish is given as 700mm.

After digging some further info, I found the below paper referring to the 700mm size in catch 31 and 39.

Polypterus senegalus Cuvier, 1829 Site 20: SL 224 mm: 1975.6.20.11. Site 21: SL 220 mm: 1975.6.20.12. Site 22: SL 270 mm: 1975.6.20.9. Site 24: SL 215 mm: 197 5.6.20.10. Site 25: SL 212,215 mm: 1975.6.20.13,14. Site 27: SL 255 mm: 197 5.6.20.8. Site 28: SL 215,220 mm: 1975.6.20.6,7. Further specimens up to 700 mm SL were caught at sites 31 and 39, but not retained.

http://mormyrids.myspecies.info/sites/mormyrids.myspecies.info/files/banister__bailey_1979.pdf

Then researching some more, I found a paper on growth of senegal bichir(below) Maximum growth observed for a 7 year period was 265cm in females and 255 in males, females apparently growing bigger than males. They also stated that the growths observed in laboratory settings were strongly inhibited compared to those in natural environment.

http://horizon.documentation.ird.fr/exl-doc/pleins_textes/pleins_textes_5/b_fdi_08-09/10507.pdf

My take on that limited information is that they may grow bigger in nature, as recorded by river sampling, that their growth is inhibited in artificial settings and that most fishkeepers may have to keep them alive for much longer than the 7 year period in the paper to be able to judge maximum growth of an adult.
Also,common fishkeepers may be correct in saying that senegals don't grow bigger than 12 inch in aquariums but that opinion has to be challenged by keeping specimens alive for many years in larger aquariums and suitable environment.

 

[Coryloach]

How does keeping 5 or 6 fish from any given species, equate to that person knowing what the maximum size for that species can be? Think about it.

Come on RD. . I am giving an example of 6 clown loaches 25 years of age and you're arguing with 1 clown loach and a an empty jug against it with unconfirmed length.

Edit: Joking...I could not resist