Best dry food for C/A cichlids? Northfin vs NLS?

RD.

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thread. I wouldn’t expect your fish to eat Northfin when you’ve been solely feeding them NLS their entire lives
Lol, I’ve fed that fish almost every make of dry food known to mankind. Still do feed several different formulas, from different manufacturers. Northfin is the only food that he has ever flat out refused. To the point of if he even smells it, he goes off his feed entirely for a couple days.

You need to spend more time using the MFK search feature, and less time speaking on a subject that you clearly know very little about. If one stores their dry food in a cool, dry, dark environment, it will typically never go rancid, fat included, fish oil included, until loooooong after the expiry date.
 
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ccichc

Jack Dempsey
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Lol, I’ve fed that fish almost every make of dry food known to mankind. Still do feed several different formulas, from different manufacturers. Northfin is the only food that he has ever flat out refused. To the point of if he even smells it, he goes off his feed entirely for a couple days.

You need to spend more time using the MFK search feature, and less time speaking on a subject that you clearly know very little about. If one stores their dry food in a cool, dry, dark environment, it will typically never go rancid, fat included, fish oil included, until loooooong after the expiry date.
Dry food with many many different ingredients. Sir, you know nothing about oxidization of polys. This topic is stupid to argue about. When oil is in a tin or capsulated in a pill.. yes it can probably last a few months to possibly a year. A plastic container where you open and close the lid multiple times everyday is exposing the oil and food to oxygen. It would be hard to test the rancidity of that product when it smells like dead fish already. But I can promise you it goes bad pretty quick.

Out of the two, Northfin has better ingredients even though they're very similar. Both are good products. :thumbsup:
Feeding fresh/frozen would the best IMO dosing with Vitachem.
 
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Fallen_Leaves16

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...I'm a bit confused here. You ask a question, wanting feedback/answers, and then go on to answer your own question and argue with others over their own views of the topic?
Seems somewhat counterintuitive, but then again I'm probably somewhat biased.

Anyways, most of my fish are rather unenthusiastic about Northfin, and seem to prefer NLS in general. Not saying anything against Northfin; I feed it to my fish often and look upon it as a high-quality food, but something about it is just unappetizing, apparently. And I'm not some NLS supremacist or advertiser; I'm just some random fellow that happens to feed a random assortment of fish foods to fish for the sheer fun of it.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there a good number of antioxidants and preservatives added to conventional fish foods that exist mainly to counter the decay/oxidation of PUFAs?
 

Jexnell

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Those of us that buy in bulk don't feed from the bulk bottle. We fill a smaller jug for daily use and only open the bulk one possibly once a month. Don't make any kind of sense to feed from a 5lb bucket for daily feeding. Goes against the very principle of buying in bulk.
 

ccichc

Jack Dempsey
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...I'm a bit confused here. You ask a question, wanting feedback/answers, and then go on to answer your own question and argue with others over their own views of the topic?
Seems somewhat counterintuitive, but then again I'm probably somewhat biased.

Anyways, most of my fish are rather unenthusiastic about Northfin, and seem to prefer NLS in general. Not saying anything against Northfin; I feed it to my fish often and look upon it as a high-quality food, but something about it is just unappetizing, apparently. And I'm not some NLS supremacist or advertiser; I'm just some random fellow that happens to feed a random assortment of fish foods to fish for the sheer fun of it.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there a good number of antioxidants and preservatives added to conventional fish foods that exist mainly to counter the decay/oxidation of PUFAs?
Very good question, preservatives would likely help the whole foods like krill, squid, fish etc.. it's hard to say how much of affect it has on certain ingredients. I don't think it would do much to oil as oil doesn't mix well , polys aren't ever paired with any preservatives in general and there might be a reason for it.

I don't want to continue a long debate here, but there are a lot of cheap garbage fish oils out there.. Not pointing fingers but I'd love to know what type NLS is using for mass production.


Fish rejecting Northfin is not a surprise, I reject my broccoli too :grinyes:
 
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RD.

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NF also contains fish oil. So does Omega, so does Hikari, etc-etc. Any brand of commercial fish food that contain raw ingredients derived from fish products. Not sure what part of this you aren’t grasping? The oil, becomes part of the extrusion process, as the fish slurry gets cooked into pellets, flakes, etc. My Omega Veggie Rounds, that my Midas pounds back like a fat kid eating M&M’s, contain herring oil. It’s listed separately on the ingredient list.

Absolutely nothing wrong with these dry foods containing oil derived from seafood, most fish require those fatty acids for survival. Some manufacturers may list those fats separately, some may choose to only list the whole food on their ingredient list. Either way they all have oil in them. I understand more than you think. Go visit a commercial manufacturing facility, then come back and tell me how an inclusion rate of 5% oil turns rancid overnight in pet food. Cheap farm feed back in the day would be dripping oil, seed oil, that would indeed sometimes go bad when sitting in an uncooled building. Todays pet foods are a different story, and are tested over time, and various exposure elements such as heat/humidity/light and oxygen to ensure the safety and nutrient levels of their various products. Most commercial fish foods manufactured for the pet trade have a shelf life of 2-3 yrs. How long they retain their nutrient levels is up to the consumer.

Several decades into this hobby, and I have never once experienced rancid fat, in a commercial fish food destined for the pet trade. And trust me, rancid fat makes fish meal smell like baby’s breath in comparison. The pet food industry is a multi billion $$$$ industry, and they all use independent as well as in house labs to constantly check quality control during, and after the food is made. Fish, dog, cat, whatever. Ditto to the larger trout/salmon\catfish farm feed suppliers, such as Skretting.

Call them up, maybe they can explain to you how fish oil is utilized in high quality feed.
 

ccichc

Jack Dempsey
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NF also contains fish oil. So does Omega, so does Hikari, etc-etc. Any brand of commercial fish food that contain raw ingredients derived from fish products. Not sure what part of this you aren’t grasping? The oil, becomes part of the extrusion process, as the fish slurry gets cooked into pellets, flakes, etc. My Omega Veggie Rounds, that my Midas pounds back like a fat kid eating M&M’s, contain herring oil. It’s listed separately on the ingredient list.

Absolutely nothing wrong with these dry foods containing oil derived from seafood, most fish require those fatty acids for survival. Some manufacturers may list those fats separately, some may choose to only list the whole food on their ingredient list. Either way they all have oil in them. I understand more than you think. Go visit a commercial manufacturing facility, then come back and tell me how an inclusion rate of 5% oil turns rancid overnight in pet food. Cheap farm feed back in the day would be dripping oil, seed oil, that would indeed sometimes go bad when sitting in an uncooled building. Todays pet foods are a different story, and are tested over time, and various exposure elements such as heat/humidity/light and oxygen to ensure the safety and nutrient levels of their various products. Most commercial fish foods manufactured for the pet trade have a shelf life of 2-3 yrs. How long they retain their nutrient levels is up to the consumer.

Several decades into this hobby, and I have never once experienced rancid fat, in a commercial fish food destined for the pet trade. And trust me, rancid fat makes fish meal smell like baby’s breath in comparison. The pet food industry is a multi billion $$$$ industry, and they all use independent as well as in house labs to constantly check quality control during, and after the food is made. Fish, dog, cat, whatever. Ditto to the larger trout/salmon\catfish farm feed suppliers, such as Skretting.

Call them up, maybe they can explain to you how fish oil is utilized in high quality feed.
Thanks for this informative post. I see with Northfin they list it as High DHA Whole herring meal which explains the extrusion process you stated, not fish oil. You’re probably right in the sense Northfin uses fish oil and doesn’t state it in the ingredients. I guess I do appreciate the honesty on NLS part, my main question would be whether or not they’re adding a fish oil verse oil that is naturally in the fish meal they process.
 

RD.

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You might find this past discussion on NF interesting.

Northfin food | MonsterFishKeepers.com


and this ........

Having said that, it doesn't take several decades worth of research to understand that the protein/amino acids, as well as the lipids/fatty acids, found in fish, krill, squid, shrimp, and other seafood, when feeding a finfish, are superior to the protein & fat derived from soybean meal, pea meal, DDGS, corn, etc.

There are scores of peer reviewed unbiased scientific papers/studies/reports that support that conclusion. The alternatives to fish protein & fat, were only "discovered", when seeking lower cost alternatives. Not healthier, or better ingredients, but cheaper ingredients, to save production costs. The anecdotal evidence that you mention is only due from the sheer resilience of most fish, that clearly can eat loads of low cost fillers and still seem to survive. There is now approx. 100 years of feed trials to prove that. Ditto to dogs, cats, etc. Not exactly something that I think we should all stand and cheer about.

This is typically where someone will post "my fish eat this (lower quality food with soybean etc) and inform everyone how healthy & colorful they are. Again, all that proves is the sheer resilience of most species of fish.
An Amphilophus living in a lake full of raw sewage in Nicaragua typically looks great too, until it dies a premature death from the toxic build up. I recall the fish in the Detroit River circa 1970 looking "great" too.




Wrong.

Things have improved drastically since I started out years ago, but there is still a lot of crap on the market, loaded with low cost terrrestrial based, cereal based fillers.

I like to think that I have played a small role in some of these improvements. Prior to joining this site I was a member, then later a mod, on a well known cichlid site. I had no affiliation with anyone but myself starting out. I beat up a lot of manufacturers back in the day, it didn't go unnoticed. I was told by one of the owners of the site that I was a mod on that other food manufacturers (other meaning not the one that I supported) would not sponsor the forum unless I went bye bye, or shut up. I was later threatened with a law suit by Dennis Crews, the owner of Omega, over something that I didn't even post. lol
I was emailed directly from the president of Hikari USA, because I was corresponding with their head researcher in Japan, as though I was involved in corporate espionage. lol Some fun/stupid reading for anyone interested. https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/massivore-question.309774/

Long story short, I made some waves, large enough waves that manufacturers began to notice that I called crap out for what it was, including when Northfin appeared to be using excessive amounts of ethoxyquin in some of their food, while stating on their website that their food was ethoxyquin free. Darius knows me as well. :)


At the end of all of that, NF did in fact update their website, which included changing their preservative-free claim. I also updated that thread to note that.

I consider that a victory. Even the better quality food manufacturers need to have checks & balances in place.



That depends on the food, but yes, absolutely.

Here's a couple of prime examples.

Wardley Algae Disc:

Ingredients: Wheat Flour, Wheat Middlings, Fish Meal, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, Wheat Gluten Meal, Brewers Dried Yeast, Soy Protein Isolate, Ground Dried Spirulina, Fish Oil, Soybean Oil, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (Source of Vitamin C), Calcium Propionate (a preservative), Rice Hulls, Choline Chloride, Betaine, Ethoxyquin (a preservative), Vitamin E Supplement, Calcium Carbonate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (Source of Vitamin K activity), Zinc Proteinate, Zinc Sulfate, Niacin Supplement, Biotin, Calcium Pantothenate, Mineral Oil, Thiamine Mononitrate, Ferrous Sulfate, Iron Proteinate, Riboflavin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Manganese Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate, Vitamin A Supplement, Sodium Selenite, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Folic Acid, Copper Sulfate, Copper Proteinate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Calcium Iodate.


Hikari Algae Wafer

INGREDIENTS

Fish meal, wheat flour, wheat germ meal, cassava starch, dried bakery product, dried seaweed meal, alfalfa nutrient concentrate dehydrated, dehydrated alfalfa meal, brewers dried yeast, soybean meal, fish oil, krill meal, spirulina, garlic, DL-methionine, chlorella, astaxanthin, choline chloride, vitamin E supplement, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (stabilized vitamin C), inositol, d-calcium pantothenate, riboflavin, vitamin A supplement, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, niacin, folic acid, vitamin D3 supplement, biotin, disodium phosphate, ferrous sulfate, magnesium sulfate, zinc sulfate, manganese sulfate, copper sulfate, calcium iodate.


Or this:

View attachment 1405642



Guess which food I would recommend that someone feed their herbivorous fish?


I have no dog in this fight. I've been out of the fish food game for well over a decade, and even when I was importing a certain brand and distributing to retail outlets in Canada, I still tested as best I could and closely followed all of the top tier manufacturers. Most manufacturers lack some transparency within their ingredient lists and processing process, some to keep other manufacturers guessing, some due to other more nefarious reasons. My advice to anyone concerned about rancidity in the feed, buy the smallest food container possible, use up as fast as you can once opened, rinse, and repeat. That's not how I purchase or use my fish food, but to each their own. What I would not do, is simply fixate on labels. Sometimes they can be misleading, or completely lacking regarding certain information.
 

ken31cay

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Interesting thread. I gravitated to Northfin over NLS after a time of using both and my fish still like Northfin.
 
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