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An old problem has returned again in the 125

FINWIN

Alligator Gar
MFK Member
About 3 or so days ago I noticed Slade had swollen lips. I'm like why is it only my most favorite fish are struck with this...I decided on a different course of action this time. Having lost 4 hrps to Columnaris I jumped on this right away. Two 90% water changes and massive salt (10lbs in the 125). I decided to treat the entire tank this time. Supposedly salt works on Columnaris the same way it does Ick. I also added a full treatment of Kanaplex which amounted to 25 scoops or 2/3 bottle.

For those of you not familiar with Slade, he is one of the 'big three' in the hrp dynasty. He along with Mongo and Pip have produced over 800 descendants. I'm hoping to save him.

I also have a container of Furan-2 type powder on tap (will post a picture later). It's for koi ponds but the stuff isn't cheap. A large pack is 75 bucks and the cup container is 45. But its powerful according to gram dosage. The smaller pack sizes aren't available until the end of the month.

I said earlier I have a theory as to why this is a chronic problem in the 125 despite having no new fish introduced. I'll share it now.

Because there are adult males in this cichlid group they get a bit aggressive at times. Mouths get injured which paves the way for tank pathogens to get in. At least that's my take on it.

I am cautiously optimistic for once. Unlike the others who succumbed, Slade doesn't have any pimples/eye swelling nor is he hiding or sitting at the bottom. He has a favorite spot he rests in mid level but avoids any frontal face offs for obvious reasons.

He also will swim around the tank. The others never did this. His tail is slightly tatty but not shredded looking. The lips appear to be stabilized (slightly?) better at the moment. Monday the tank will get another treatment.

These fish are so intelligent. He knows when I'm trying to see and turns his head and hides his mouth. I'll patiently wait and he eventually comes into the open where I can observe.

The salt definitely perked him up in the last two days (prior to the kanaplex) so we'll see.

Most impressive? His two largest sons, Brutus and Squiggy. They act as guardians and won't let the others hassle Slade or get near when he's relaxing. This is good because a stressed fish doesn't heal as well.

Will give updates. Here's the backup medicine:

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I find that if the gram-negative bacteria that causes Columnaris get established in a tank, it is impossible to get rid of, and will continue to reinfect forever.
Even if meds are added, it can outlive them.
It can exist inert in a dry smear of dirt indefinitely and reinfect any fish that is reintroduced if water is reintroduced to the tank.
A carrier was introduced to a QT tank I had, and all cichlids in the tank eventually died, or were euthanized.
to keep it from spreading throughout my other tanks,
I then filled the tank with breach water, and submerged anything that had touched the infected water.
Tubing, tank tops, even it it was suspected of being splashed, it was bleached.
If it couldn't be submerged in bleach, it was tossed.
 
I find that if the gram-negative bacteria that causes Columnaris get established in a tank, it is impossible to get rid of, and will continue to reinfect forever.
Even if meds are added, it can outlive them.
It can exist inert in a dry smear of dirt indefinitely and reinfect any fish that is reintroduced if water is reintroduced to the tank.
A carrier was introduced to a QT tank I had, and all cichlids in the tank eventually died, or were euthanized.
to keep it from spreading throughout my other tanks,
I then filled the tank with breach water, and submerged anything that had touched the infected water.
Tubing, tank tops, even it it was suspected of being splashed, it was bleached.
If it couldn't be submerged in bleach, it was tossed.

I remember your posts on this

I have no idea of the origin of it in the 125. No new fish have been added, just fish removed...so that's the perplexing part. It's also why I'm treating the tank this time, treating the fish in isolation had no good result. The last containment items I treated a sick fish with were tossed. My other tanks have separate hoses, pumps, etc.
 
Sorry to hear. Never knew you could treat columnaris with salt. Please keep us posted on how that works. I’ve had the best success with a combo of kanamycin and nitrofurazone. Have also used acriflavine in the past but don’t see it sold anymore.
 
Sorry to hear. Never knew you could treat columnaris with salt. Please keep us posted on how that works. I’ve had the best success with a combo of kanamycin and nitrofurazone. Have also used acriflavine in the past but don’t see it sold anymore.
thanks everyone for your input. I've wracked my brain trying to think if there's something I missed somewhere.

From research, apparently high GH values (and harder water) help the disease attach to fish. It can occur from injury/bullying/damage from exposure to existing bacteria in tank.

It thrives on organic detritus and waste.

Transfers from fish contact, new fish/water introduced.

The salt treatment combines it with Kanamycin or Furan-2. (and lower temps)

I can only say Slade has already lasted longer than the others. Seems steady for now.
 
Update, not a good one. There was a change overnight and it appears that Slade's head is swelling some on one side. He's still swimming around but I'm in the process of doing a tank drain and removal. I've had a bucket waiting for him so that's where he'll go. I'm also considering tossing some of the deco up top. No other fish are affected.

There's a couple of things I'm going to try but I'm prepared in any case.
 
If Columnaris is one of those infectious agents that hang around pretty much forever, then it seems likely that just about every aquarium must have it...or no? I mean, no amount of caution, quarantine and/or disinfection is going to prevent it from making its way into an aquarium eventually. A single drop of water from an infected tank during a transfer; a dry ornament or piece of substrate, or a net or tool, or...well, you get the idea. Given enough time, something will happen.

If that's true...and it realistically seems to make sense to me...then why does the disease manifest itself relatively rarely? Is this a case of stress that results in a depleted/weakened immune system allowing the bug to take hold? And does a community of cichlids tend to promote a more-or-less constant low (or high...) level of stress, more so than many other styles of tank? Most cichlid tanks result in stress to me just from watching them; surely the fish are subject to this stress as well.

You mention that your favourite fish seem to be the ones that get it. Are they faves because they are the biggest, baddest, most colourful and maybe most aggressive in the bunch? Those alpha-level fish would, almost by definition, be the most-highly-stressed in the tank. They are constantly being forced to maintain their dominance, whether by actual combat or maybe just by aggressive posturing and displaying. Stress, stress, stress...

Favourites often earn that title by being long-term...i.e. old...inhabitants of the tank. How old is Slade? How long do small cichlids live? I wonder if stress is possibly a contributing factor to the eventual death of most cichlids that are kept in communities...preventing them from living as long as they might otherwise.

How about those numerous aquarists who keep a piranha, wolffish, snakehead or other oh-so-cool predator, and feed it a constant diet of live goldfish scooped on a weekly basis from the leper colony...oops, sorry, I meant feeder tank...at the LFS. Are we to believe that no pathogens are being introduced that way? Ridiculous. But the predators don't all get sick and die within the first few weeks of this type of life; why not? Is it perhaps a lower level of stress that allows them to resist and persist?

The biggest baddest whitetail bucks in a local herd are usually the first to succumb to harsh winters. They enter the cold season in terrible condition, after a fall rutting season during which they chase does and fight amongst themselves and get little or no rest; when the rigors of winter descend they are the most deconditioned members of the herd and often won't survive. They also tend not to eat much during the rut, and I realize that doesn't really occur with most alpha fish, but the stress thing seems worthy of consideration.

Another possible problem arises when the fish gets sick. Many aquarists care for their fish, which really means they care for their water; they filter it, heat it, condition it, change it, test parameters religiously, and generally dote on the stuff...as they should! But then a fish develops a problem, and it is removed to...a bucket. An unfiltered, possibly unheated, impossible-to-stabilize tiny volume of water that quickly degrades in quality to a level far below what the fish has been living in previously. So the fish is already weakened and infected, and now it's also subjected to much poorer and less stable conditions. Again...stress, stress, stress...

Of course, not removing the weakened sick fish simply increases the odds of everybody else getting the bug as well. Maybe the bacteria are present constantly, but at low enough concentrations that they don't manifest as disease in otherwise-healthy fish. But, if one does become ill, now the others are being exposed to a bacteria load many times higher than normal? I'm not stating this is so, just pondering the idea.

Not helpful, I know. But at least I think it's worth considering these factors while trying to come up with a course of action. Good luck with Slade.
 
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I agree with Duane. When this involves one of the more virulent acute strains of Flexibactor columnaris aka Flavobacterium columnare, survival is rare.

And that's part of the problem, there is several strains....
 
I'm getting ready to check on the drain, but everyone makes some good points.

I am 1,000 percent convinced it's always present. I'm big on research. And there's data saying the bacteria strains are always present. Two varieties: the one that kills quickly and there's another type that kills slow.

Nothing I've done so far works so I'm trying different method. I've lost 4 when I separated them. I'm going to say Slade is probably 3-4ish. I got him and Mongo as babies during the summer of 2021.

My favorites are either the most personable or most established, not really the 'baddest'. I posted earlier my theory as to why this is an issue with this one tank in particular. It's a sneaky disease too because you don't know how long a fish has it before symptoms start. By the time you see it you're chasing treatment options and hoping.

It always seems to be singular fish. The weird thing is that his mouth has actually improved but now the side swell of the head. I'll post pics after he's been moved.
 
Back in the 50s and 60s (when I 1st started in the hobby), Columnaris was commonly known as "live bearer disease", and seemed to especially infect, inbred and hybrid strains of live bearers such as guppies, platies, etc.
Then right about the time FHs and BPs were created, and became popular it made a resurgence.
My own personal belief on this, is that heavy antibiotic over-use in Asia to try and keep alive, and produce as many less than robust individuals as possible with scrammbled genes, commercially, produced "super bug" antibiotic resistant strains of Columnaris, carrying over to the rest of the cichlid hobby.
In my 1st 30 years in the hobby, I had never experienced a case of Columnaris in any cichlid I had, not until ,,,,,,,FHs and BPs hit the stage.
Coincidence???? I don't think so.
 
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