Intentional Overcrowding

duanes

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It is common practice when keeping African cichlids, that overcrowding is often a key to success in those biotope type tanks.
In Central American tanks, this “usually”: works as a kiss of death, and presumably only feasible until maturity sets in, then often, the community dynamic quickly goes south, when territoriality usurps the need for safety in numbers.
But many successful African aquarists don’t simply combine cichlids randomly, instead… they adhere to specific species combinations that allow certain trophic feeding preferences to prevail. Combining specific combinations that will be compatible within the known boundaries, of a certain limited space.
These may be due to different species-specific algal or prey taste preferences.
Where one species crops specific algal species, another species follows close behind picking out different algal types only exposed by the first species that pass.
This natural agricultural rotation is beneficial to both species, and prevents antagonistic competition of valuable resources.
As an example as Taeniolethrinops prorbiltails sifts thru sand (not unlike South American geophagines, or Central American Thorichthys or Cribroheros) and it is often followed close by Cyrtiocara moori which picks up the leftovers.

A question then arises for me?
Have new world (especially Central American cichlids) evolved similar advantageous trophic processes within there chosen biotope areas?
And if so,…. are we short sighted in our random aquarium cichlid combinations, and geographic un-awareness?
there combinational rules that could help determine success or failure in tese new world species tanks?

I have been collecting cichlids in a river system in eastern Panama, where I have encountered only 2 cichlid species.
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Have these two species instinctually worked out a strategy that allows each to survive simultaneously without stepping on each others toes, and without conflict?
In these particular rivers, Rio Las Lotes, Rio Pacora, Rio Utive, and Rio Cadre Bre, (where so far) I have only caught 2 cichlid species, within months of collecting forays. There are plenty of “non”-cichlids, but only 2 cichlids, Andinoacara coerleopunctatus, and Isthmoheros tuyrense have been captured.
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So about a year ago I put a number of juvies, (1” to 2.5”) of, these two species, in a 180 gal tank, and have been observing interactions. within the group ever since.
At the size they are now, (3.5” to 5”) maturity is on the horizon, so at this point normal cichlid territoriality should begin to be apparent, unless a sort of detente is in the offing.
The only other denizen of the tank is at the moment, a lone Ctenolucius beani.
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Although both species consume preferred aquarium fare, the Veija like Istmoheros grazes naturally on algae on sunken wood, even algae of the glass.
There are reports of a similar symbiotic relationship with Parachromis dovii and Hypsophrys nicaraguensis, where adult nic’s, will guard dovii fry, while the dovii hunt, protecting fry from mauruading Nemtroplus.
Since I have never had enough tank space to properly house dovii and another species together, I have not tried this.
But in my current 180 these two species (Andinoacara, ad Isthmoheros both medium speccies) may work.
Only time will tell.
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troublesum

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I believe your 100% correct in this theory its the chain of life i just don't think we see it in our tanks as they are just glass cages but in the wild 1 fish dies many fish get to live from that fish dying 1 fish lays eggs and have fry what maybe 10-15 fry survive out of hundreds, thousands but many other fish live as they east those fry.
Awesome subject
 

duanes

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I agree that in the confines of a tank, it is imposible to get a realistic impression even close to the ways our cichlids live in nature.
My 6 ft tank is a barely a puddle compared to the space they inhabit in nature.
And as a rule, I usually keep one of a species pair, per 6 foot tank
What intrigues me, though is that these two species "seem" to have worked out a detante within a number of Panamania eastern rivers without obvious conflict.
And may??????? suggest a more realistiic strategy in to the way we keep our cichlid..

So'.......
Keeping Mexican Hericthys riverine species, with Nicarauguan crater lake Amphilophines may seem acceptable to many generic cichlid keepers, but they may not be a good strategy, where the cichlids are concerned, or......
keeping Mexican frugivorine Vieja with Costa Rican piscovores may (or may not) coinside within cichlid species boundaries.

Same may go for South American species.
Just because Andinoacara rivulatus is from that continent , (albeit rivers west of the Andies, and slightly different water parameters), doesn't mean it will cohabit peacebly with Hoplarchus psitticus from the softer waters of Amazonia.

My experiment may help decide whether specific species this is a "thing" to consider, or not.
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Hybridfish7

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I said this exact concept word for word at my talk last year just for the record...
 

duanes

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The difference here, Is .....I'm not trying to randomly overcrowd combinatiions of a hodge podge of cichlid species,
but trying to determine if in nature, certaln combinations have come together to developed over time, in a more complicated fusion, that is beneficial to each species. And whether this same combination can be duplicated in the confines of a tank,
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We see this repeatedly, where clown fish and anemonies coinside together.
Where Jelly fish, and certain small species coperate to the benefit of both.
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Hybridfish7

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The difference here, Is .....I'm not trying to randomly overcrowd combinatiions of a hodge podge of cichlid species,
but trying to determine if in nature, certaln combinations have come together to developed over time, in a more complicated fusion, that is beneficial to each species. And whether this same combination can be duplicated in the confines of a tank,
View attachment 1547889
We see this repeatedly, where clown fish and anemonies coinside together.
Where Jelly fish, and certain small species coperate to the benefit of both.
View attachment 1547887View attachment 1547888
And I never said I was either... I am always talking about doing species only colonies of Amatitlania/Cryptoheros/Thorichthys/Amphilophus/etc
 

RedRaven

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Over a decade ago I tried the whole, Neets, Dovii, Nics etc in my old 7x3x2 (1male Dovii, 3 females, 6 Nics and originally 16 Neets). Worked well for a couple years until the female dovii got large enough to swallow the 3-4 inch Neets. The Male dovii would spawn with all the the females and it was interesting watching the broods mix. One morning perhaps the left hand female would have the majority of the fry and it would change regularly. The females jostled and displayed most of the time but very little damage was caused for the the most part. My aquarium was far too small to recreate my intention. They did end up in 10ft for a short while but the same there unfortunately. The Nics didn't appear to give much attention to the Dovii fry but they were usually held 2-3ft away from a spawn.
 
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duanes

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The above sounds reasonable, with those much larger species.
This is why I am experimenting with only small cichlid species I catch.
The Andinoacara usually only max out at 6 to 7", the Isthmoheros 9 in nature.
At this point all , are under 5", so (as I said a couple posts before) I do expect the shoe to drop when, (and if) they get much larger, in a tank as tiny as only 180 gals.
If the Isthmoheros do max out, that will be when, all the cooperative boxing gloves come off, and in a tank size of 180 gals, I expect only 1 mated pair will be tolerated.
 

esoxlucius

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This whole concept of, will this species of cichlid get on with that species of cichlid, can they co-exist without aggression, will they tolerate one another, is all very puzzling to me duanes duanes . Especially so when you are doing the experiment in a fish tank!!

You are the first person to admit that cichlids are territorial, and those territories can be many many times greater than what even a large aquarium can offer them.

Taking this into consideration how can you possibly expect to witness natural behaviour and attain a definitive answer to your question when they're crammed together in your 180g puddle!

Imo the only chance you've got of pulling this off is watching them in their natural environment during your dives for example.

Would that be a fair observation?
 
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