Is my tiger shovel nose a dwarf?

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monsterkeeper87

monsterkeeper87

Piranha
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Jan 16, 2013
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Just wondering if my TSN (fasciatum) is a genetically small 1 or has been stunted or if its just a slower than average grower, I have had "tigs" for about a year and a half, he was about 3" when I got him and his TL is only 8-9" now, I was told that if they are stunted there nose's turn down and I think mine is fine? Here's some pics, sorry about the dirty glass i'v just done a PWC :)


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monsterkeeper87 said:
Just wondering if my TSN (fasciatum) is a genetically small 1 or has been stunted or if its just a slower than average grower, I have had "tigs" for about a year and a half, he was about 3" when I got him and his TL is only 8-9" now, I was told that if they are stunted there nose's turn down and I think mine is fine? Here's some pics, sorry about the dirty glass i'v just done a PWC :)
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If I had to guess, I'd say it is tigrinum. I am not aware of natural dwarf TSNs. Stuning can happen but this is usually such a gray area. If you got him at 3" and kept his water good, I'd throw out the stunting guess also. Slow grower he may be. I see his gill cover is cut off but, gill curl usually has no bearing on the size and growth rate. The diet and, rather, the amount of food do.

The downturned nose - I never heard of that being associated with the stunting. These are called duck-bill mutants. One of mine was 3':

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thebiggerthebetter said:
If I had to guess, I'd say it is tigrinum. I am not aware of natural dwarf TSNs. Stuning can happen but this is usually such a gray area. If you got him at 3" and kept his water good, I'd throw out the stunting guess also. Slow grower he may be. I see his gill cover is cut off but, gill curl usually has no bearing on the size and growth rate. The diet and, rather, the amount of food do.

The downturned nose - I never heard of that being associated with the stunting. These are called duck-bill mutants. One of mine was 3':
Click to expand...

I got him at 3" and he was supposedly wild caught so I see no reason for him to have gill surgery? And he is bit of a fussy eater as in he won't eat pellets but white fish and fresh prawns and he stuffs his gut and he gets these 2-3 times a week. I have always kept water pentameters perfect even under 0.25ppm nitrate so I don't suspect stunting since I have had him. I don't know much about the tirned down nose, i was just bored 1 day and researching stunting and this was a theory for it. Do you think it's worth starting an id thread? I was told he was a fasciatum and never doubted it so idk...


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Just done a google search and found this picture and my 1 definitely looks more like the pseudoplatstoma tigrinum than a fasciatum... Does that explain it? Have they got different growth rates?


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MK: I got him at 3" and he was supposedly wild caught so I see no reason for him to have gill surgery?
TBTB: I see. I guess I jumped to conclusion. But his gill cover looks strange - it looks like the flap is missing and the gill can be seen.

MK: And he is bit of a fussy eater as in he won't eat pellets
TBTB: Typical. They can be made take pellets but it is not easy.

MK: but white fish and fresh prawns and he stuffs his gut and he gets these 2-3 times a week.
TBTB: Sounds right and good. But... see below.

MK: I have always kept water pentameters perfect even under 0.25ppm nitrate so I don't suspect stunting since I have had him.
TBTB: Excellent. I don't think he is stunted either.

MK: I don't know much about the tirned down nose, i was just bored 1 day and researching stunting and this was a theory for it. Do you think it's worth starting an id thread? I was told he was a fasciatum and never doubted it so idk...
TBTB: I don't think he is big enough yet for a firmer species level ID. It is usually easier when they get to 2', speaking of normal growers. With yours being so slow, maybe it can be tried now too as he is over 1.5 years old, right?

I think the three main ones in the hobby - tigrinum, fasciatum and reticulatum grow at about the same rate.

So, back to him growing slowly - I cannot offer anything plausible atm. Except for the gill flap missing, everything else seems normal. I don't suppose he could have such a bad intestinal worm infestation either that it would limit its growth. He'd be exhibiting clear (di)stress symptoms from that, I think.

Perhaps, if all he gets are fish pieces and prawns (no heads, no guts, etc.) he is lacking some vitamins/minerals/nutrients. You might wanna consider soaking his food in something like Vita-Chem or stuffing good pellets into his food and see if he shows a growth spurt.
 
Ok thanks, he is showing no sign of distress and neither are any of my other fish I I don't think it is parasites. The fish I give him are whole I think they are referred to as silversides and not white bait (sorry it was late) and yes maybe it's worth a shot at an ID...
As for the gill flaps do you mean the gill plate or the membrane? And would he really of needed surgery for GC at such a young age? Especially if he actually was wild caught, I know the guys from where I got him and I see no reason why they would lie about that :/


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Was his gill like that when you bought him? my last TSN had gill curl that looked exactly like that. instead of curling out.. it curled in. almost from the begining ( when i bought him he was a special order so was in the shipping bag when I picked him up) I would def try and expand his foods as this was the main difference in my current TSN and my other one who developed the gill curl... unless its a manifestation of inbreeding? my only other "guess" is when you unbag new fish.. you get instant reaction of ammonium to O2... and get some wicked water quality spikes at times even as your acclimating and could cause long-term effects. which may not have yet become apparent at the lfs, but as teh fish grow caused it to grow funny. I'll see if I can find some pictures of him.
 
His gills don't look curled in or out :/ but I see what you mean, the plates do look smallish, maybe he is just a mutant Lol as for the acclimatising theory I really don't know but I have never heard of water quality causing gill shrinkage


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Another thing I noticed on him as far as Id goes he has bright yellow/gold down his flanks that slightly spreads to his underside in the centre... Don't know if this helps?


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