Pikes and Hole-in-the-Head

[ryansmith83]

Just a general pike question. Forgive me if this topic has been beaten to death.

Ever since my F1 Uaru fernandezyepezi started showing HITH, I've become borderline paranoid about my other cichlids having this. I meticulously check their faces all the time for signs of pits forming.

I know from reading basic info on pikes that certain blackwater species are susceptible to HITH in the aquarium. Are there any species in particular that this is a common problem with?

I ask because I've seen a lot of pictures of wild-caught pikes on various importer sites/AquaBid, etc. and they all look like they have big pits on the face. I'm assuming these fish are freshly imported when the pictures were taken, so do they sometimes come in this way from the wild? Or does it progress that fast once they hit an importer's tanks?

I'd love to hear some thoughts and opinions on this. I don't want to make the jump with a fish that I won't be able to properly care for. Unfortunately, I don't have very soft, acidic water.

 

[Peanut_Power]

The most common pike in my experience that gets HITH is definitely Crenicichla sp. 'atabapo II'. You have to REALLY watch your hardness and pH with them, or they WILL get it, and fast.

Really there are a lot of pikes that get HITH if you let your water parameters go all crazy. Crenicichla sp. 'xingu I' is a good example of this. Generally they aren't as prone to getting HITH, yet if you don't keep up with water changes it is possible for them to get LLE and HITH.

Definitely keep an eye on the black water species as they do seem to get it more often and easier. Crenicichla sp. 'atabapo II' and Crenicichla multispinosa so far have been the two pikes that seem to get it the easiest. I only have experience with sp. 'atabapo II' though, the multispinosa is just hear say.

As for them coming in with HITH, its possible, but really not too horribly likely. A lot of the time they are held in tanks before they are shipped to the states for a few days/weeks, then they are in the dealers tanks for who knows how long. It doesn't take long for them to get HITH, and I'm sure the stress of being caught, handled, and shipped doesn't help much either.

Waterchanges waterchanges waterchanges. Pikes are predators, so they produce more waste. Keeping the water as pristine as possible is essential. I generally try to do at least two 35% waterchanges a week, and sometimes end up doing more than that. When in doubt, do another waterchange.

 

[edburress]

Crenicichla sp. 'atabapo II' and Crenicichla multispinosa so far have been the two pikes that seem to get it the easiest. I only have experience with sp. 'atabapo II' though, the multispinosa is just hear say.

My multispinosa are prone to HITH, it's a constant battle to keep them 100% clear (and my tapwater is very conducive for them, I can't imagine if it wasn't).

ryansmith83... If you avoid the blackwater species, you shouldn't have any problems.

Ed

 

[fugupuff]

my experience. These Suriname fish seem to be very prone to this disease, however...

The cichla that I got from this country, the small ones were clean, the larger ones came in with HITH. But after a few days, the HITH would clear up and heal over. The small ones I got never got HITH, until people bought them and they got a little bigger. I had one that I kept in a sump for the past few months, and figured it would be all messed up, hard almost brackish water, cold in the low 70s., with a bunch of other fish. To my surprise, he was clean and healthy.

also to be on topic, I kept and group of multispinosa as well, the smaller ones got eaten by the other fish, I have one pair now, about 12" each, they're both clean, and the water is hard, and I've never changed water, ph is about 7.5. crushed coral substrate.

some people say that its pathogenic, or contagious, or is it? they use to treat discus with hexamite, which is flagyl, antibiotic/antiprotozoan medication

also a theory, about this carbon use...saying that it causes it...

also, salt water fish will get hold in the head also, most tangs, and many angel fish., even groupers.

My theory is that the hole in the head and lateral line erosion is just an expression of the stress the fish is going under. The cause may be bacterial, parasitic, water hardness, poor diet, or just simple stress from being handled.

So in some cases if the stress is removed, i.e. bacteria via antibiotics, parasite via antiparasitic, stress after they're acclimated, or poor water quality once adjusted they come back to normal.

In salt water fish that case may be poor diet, accompanied to some water quality, mineral difieciency.

The odd thing is that this almost never happens to other species of freshwater fish, or African cichlids, right.

 

[Tripletail]

My multispinosa are prone to HITH, it's a constant battle to keep them 100% clear (and my tapwater is very conducive for them, I can't imagine if it wasn't).

ryansmith83... If you avoid the blackwater species, you shouldn't have any problems.

Ed

Ed, do you see signs of hith in your multispinosa occaisionally with soft water?

 

[edburress]

Tripletail... Yes, the TDS of my tap water is 120µm (about 4º dH). If I separate the pair, it goes away entirely in a few days, so I think the stress of being combined results in minor pitting (they really don't like each other).

Ed

 

[Tripletail]

Ed,I have been keeping a group of 4 multispinosa together, along with 5 Suriname geos and 2 festivums from Guyana. My tap water is about 7.8ph with low unstable hardness .I buffer the water to keep it stable 7.8ph and increase hardness. Also, like fugupuff I use crushed coral about 1/2 inch thick as substrate So far my pikes and other fish have not shown any hith, and the pikes have grown from 5-6 inches to 8-9 . There is 1 dominant pike and a heirarchy among them. They do scrap a little when feeding mostly.

 

[edburress]

Yeah I've heard similar success with keeping them in a group. I wish I had more than two, I am sure that's the source of my aggression problems. They're 11-12", so maybe 180g is not enough room for them. I have a group of S. leucosticta as dithers.

That's weird about the crushed coral. Ironically, I was considering the opposite approach... taking the pH and TDS down LOL. But I don't think it's an issue with the water, just with stress. They're in a display tank now, so maybe I will move them into a tank by themselves with lots of PVC and see if they can get along.

Thanks for sharing your experiences!

Ed

 

[Tripletail]

Yes, the crushed coral I use mainly to add minerals to the water as the geos sift through it and move it around. I use marine buffer to keep the water stable. I also age the water outside in a 400 gal. tank and adjust and stabilize it before going into tanks. My city does crazy things to my water. Sometimes ammonia so strong you can smell it from the tap. I would love to see pics of your pikes. I will take some pics of my group when I get my camera out one of these days soon.

 

[Peanut_Power]

Very interesting guys. Both ends of the spectrum and two different results, both of which not really expected. LoL

So what about Cr. sp. 'atabapo II'? I still haven't figured that one out. It seems they ALWAYS get HITH sooner or later. I have high pH, hard water, they got HITH. Switched to straight rain water and peat moss, and the HITH stopped but they still have it.

I am at a loss as to what to do. Perhaps setting them up in their own tank might help, remove a lot of stress I'm sure.

Keep the discussion going! Very interesting points!

+2 on the pictures!