Stocking 600 Gallon Greenhouse Pond With Reptiles And Large Fish

[Toivo]

Hi all, this is my first post on this forum but i'm looking for some advice.

I'm building a 400x300x350cm greenhouse with a 400x100x60cm cinderblock pond on one side, the tank will probably hold closer to 450/500 gallons as i'm going to build a large waterfall outlet for the filter. The filtration will be 2 55 gallon barrels, the first one as a bog/wetland filter with plants and various gravel/rock sizes. The second barrel will be more traditional, having filter floss and filter sponges as well as heaters and maybe a uv sterilizer. I'm thinking of running about 2000gph through this filter.

An important factor is that the fish will be housed with a reeves turtle, a pink bellied side-neck and a australian water dragon. I'm in new zealand so we have quite limited options for exotic pets. There will also be a three toed box turtle but that won't be able to get to the pond. Both the turtles and the water dragon don't eat fish as long as they are larger than their mouth, although the turtles might take a chunk out of some smaller fish.

My current fish choices are;
(excuse the mix of scientifc and common names)

6x Geophagus surinamensis
6x Geophagus pyrocephalus
1x Flagtail Prochilodus
1x Sunshine Pleco

Threadfin Acara - Maybe
Datnioides microlepis - Want, maybe
Black Arowana - Want, maybe

The pond will have a mesh canopy ensuring fish can't jump out, the only spot where they could jump is onto the waterfall but they will just fall back in.

Cheers

 

[Midwater]

It sounds a fantastic project. I am not sure all those turtles and fish will go together. If fact, I am sure they won't.

 

[Toivo]

It sounds a fantastic project. I am not sure all those turtles and fish will go together. If fact, I am sure they won't.

I'm sure the pleco will be fine and the geophagus tend to stay at the bottom. The tank is massive so the fish have plenty of space to stay away from the turtles. I'm not sure about the reeves turtles but the pink bellied side neck is kept commonly enough with fish larger then it. The reeves turtles are very timid as well. I think I might just keep the side necks. If It was something like a red ear slider I definitely wouldn't keep fish but from what I have heard and seen these 2 turtles seem to be more compatible as long as the fish are large.

 

[Toby_H]

Sounds like a fun project.

There will be risk involved, mixing creatures like this, but life is a series of risks isn't it?
Your turtles will be safe from the fish, so as long as you aren't going to be heart broken by providing a turtle an expensive meal, I vote 'go for it!'. That is not to say the fish 'will' get eaten. But they might.

I think any of the fish you mentioned could work. They may not realize the turtles are a threat until it's too late. But like you said, the turtles you are choosing are less likely to target larger fish as food.

I would also consider stocking a medium sized livebearer such as Mollies or Platys. Pick something that will reproduce and expect to lose some to both the turtles and fish. If you get your numbers right it becomes a balanced system, between breeding and predation.

Last thing. Chances are when you buy the fish they'll be young/small. You may want to get the fish a year before the turtles, or grow them out in another tank before adding them to the environment with turtles. Just to let them put some size on before meeting the turtles.

 

[Toivo]

Sounds like a fun project.

There will be risk involved, mixing creatures like this, but life is a series of risks isn't it?
Your turtles will be safe from the fish, so as long as you aren't going to be heart broken by providing a turtle an expensive meal, I vote 'go for it!'. That is not to say the fish 'will' get eaten. But they might.

I think any of the fish you mentioned could work. They may not realize the turtles are a threat until it's too late. But like you said, the turtles you are choosing are less likely to target larger fish as food.

I would also consider stocking a medium sized livebearer such as Mollies or Platys. Pick something that will reproduce and expect to lose some to both the turtles and fish. If you get your numbers right it becomes a balanced system, between breeding and predation.

Thanks so much for the detailed reply, I will likely just keep the side neck turtle as from what I have seen they are the least likely to attack ther fish out of the ones I can keep in nz. How about guppies and sailfin mollys? Do you have any other large fish reccomendations that won't be super aggressive? I'm thinking about a giant gourami maybe?

 

[Toby_H]

I have several tanks with Endlers, Mollies and Plattys. Endlers breed breed constantly for me, Mollies do okay and platties hate me and/or my water. I've kept them as a reproducing food source off and on for decades, but never took much time to learn anything about them. In my limited experience, after 5 or so years my Molly colonies stop reproducing. So I buy 15 more and they exist as another reproducing colony for another 5 or so years. I bought about 20 Endlers about 8 years ago and have a thriving colony of over 1,000 now. (Note: Endlers are essentially guppies).

Giant Gouramis get GIANT. 40-500 gallons is certainly enough for them, but they it will be a strong presence in the pond. I'm not sure if an adult would be too aggressive for the other medium sized more docile fish you're considering.

 

[jjohnwm]

I think the dangers of turtles are vastly over-exaggerated. I've had lots of assorted turtles over the years, and the only ones that were not fish-compatible were MataMatas, Alligator Snappers and Softshells. The first two are specially adapted fish eaters so the problem is pretty evident. Softies are just aggressive buttheads that are incompatible with just about anything.

But many other species...Reeves, Chinese Box, Sliders, Maps, Diamondbacks, Blanding's, etc...have been perfectly accepting of fish as tankmates. Most of them will definitely chow down on a dead fish that they find, and I wonder if that is perhaps where their bad reputation originates. An aquarist finds his turtle enthusiastically dismantling a dead fish and automatically assumes that the turtle killed the thing, when in reality the turtle is just trying to help out with tank maintenance.

I have only one turtle now, a Stinkpot Musk that I got as a hatchling 7 years ago and which is now about 4 inches in shell length (they are a small species). This animal has shared its accommodations with an assortment of fish over the years and has never bothered one. He is pure murder on snails, cherry shrimp, worms, leeches, bugs, duckweed and turtle pellets, but he rarely even investigates a dead fish if I offer one.

But...if he is housed with larger fish, around his own size or larger, he frequently tries to mount them, especially slow-moving and/or sedentary fish like plecos, etc...but he ain't trying to kill them and eat them!

 

[Toivo]

I think the dangers of turtles are vastly over-exaggerated. I've had lots of assorted turtles over the years, and the only ones that were not fish-compatible were MataMatas, Alligator Snappers and Softshells. The first two are specially adapted fish eaters so the problem is pretty evident. Softies are just aggressive buttheads that are incompatible with just about anything.

But many other species...Reeves, Chinese Box, Sliders, Maps, Diamondbacks, Blanding's, etc...have been perfectly accepting of fish as tankmates. Most of them will definitely chow down on a dead fish that they find, and I wonder if that is perhaps where their bad reputation originates. An aquarist finds his turtle enthusiastically dismantling a dead fish and automatically assumes that the turtle killed the thing, when in reality the turtle is just trying to help out with tank maintenance.

I have only one turtle now, a Stinkpot Musk that I got as a hatchling 7 years ago and which is now about 4 inches in shell length (they are a small species). This animal has shared its accommodations with an assortment of fish over the years and has never bothered one. He is pure murder on snails, cherry shrimp, worms, leeches, bugs, duckweed and turtle pellets, but he rarely even investigates a dead fish if I offer one.

But...if he is housed with larger fish, around his own size or larger, he frequently tries to mount them, especially slow-moving and/or sedentary fish like plecos, etc...but he ain't trying to kill them and eat them!

Thanks so much, I have decided to extend the greenhouse by 3 metres and also make the pond alot larger - around 1900 gallons and 14 feet long because I feel bad keeping an arowana in anything less than 800 gallons.

All the stocking will be the same except for the datnoides, I've decided on keeping the fish stocking only south american. I might also keep some red bellied pacu and silver dollars but I am not sure as I do like plants but the turtles might destroy those anyway. I think I will have 2 pink bellied sidenecks and 1 reeves turtle. I am a bit unsure on how feeding will go when I am away - I am planning on using 2 or 3 auto feeders with a mix of sinking and floating pellets. I will also release a large group of livebearers as feeder fish for turtles or larger fish. What do you think?

 

[jjohnwm]

I like the way you think! Nice to hear about Arowanas that will have enough room to actually swim with their entire bodies in a straight line for awhile.

Everybody always worries about the turtles eating the fish; nobody seems to consider the opposite problem. For example, pacus are cool, and they aren't really "aggressive" in the typical sense of the word...but they grow into big bumbling oafs that swim around taking bites out of everything just in case it might taste good, and they are fairly fast. I think pacu mom had an interesting interaction between one of her big pacus and her fingers. A big pacu housed with a small turtle like a Reeve's might or probably would, IMHO, end in the eventual death or dismemberment of the turtle. Same with Giant Gourami; I love 'em, and the big guy I had for many years never bothered any other fish, large or small, with the exception of others of his own species. BUT...many keepers have commented on how aggressive their GG's were, so it's a roll of the dice which personality type yours might have.

Plants? Yikes. Most turtles I have had would gleefully eat most plants right down to the roots. My current Stinky seems not to like Guppy Grass (Najas) and it grows pretty quickly, but generally speaking plants and turtles don't go together very well. I'm sure that it's much like the aggression thing; you pay your money and you take your chances.

I don't trust auto feeders and don't use them anymore. Using two of them doubles the odds that one will fail. I spent close to 10 years working at remote locations where I was absent for 3 weeks at a time, then home for 1, then gone again. The only autofeeder I utilized was my wife, who was provided with pre-measured single-serving packages for each tank and doled them out on a schedule. But it depends upon how often you are absent and for how long. The occasional 1- or 2-week holiday? I wouldn't even spare a thought to allowing the tank to go without food for that long; it's certainly much safer than an autofeeder.

You're going to need to try various ideas to see what works best for you. Small fish in the tank would, IMHO, add a lovely element to the overall picture, but expecting them to provide food on a continuous basis is a pipedream. Some individuals of some species of fish might eat them, depending largely upon the relative sizes of the big guys and the little ones. A 2-foot arowana will almost certainly ignore small tetras and guppies, but will probably scarf down adult swordtail or mollies. And if the big guy decides it's worth his while to eat them...he's gonna find and eat all of them within a fairly short time. If this is going to work out, I think you will need to hold off on adding the tiny fish until all your other stock has grown up big enough to make the small guys not worth the effort to chase down.

I'm really looking forward to following the progress of this tank; I hope you keep us posted!

 

[Toivo]

Okay I think I will just go with some pink bellied side necks and a pair of australian water dragons. The water dragons won't touch the aquatic plants and from what I have heard the side necks seem safe enough.

As for fish so far I'm going with
14x Geophagus (7x surinamensis, 7x 'Tapajos)
1x Flagtail Prochilodus
1x Sunshine Pleco
1x Black Arowana

8x Threadfin Acara - Maybe
6x Flag Cichlid - Maybe
South American Tetras - Maybe

If I don't have plants then I will probably add some red hook or spotted silver dollars.

Do you have any other recommendations for south american fish?

The pond will be filtered with a wetland filter as well as a water polisher and I will probably put some hillstream loaches in the waterfall/stream returning the water to the pond.

I will likely build my own auto feeder that has lots of redundancy switches as well as a couple of seperate outlets to spread the food out so 1 fish doesn't hog everything. The water dragons will be fed by someone coming in every 3 days or so. I am away for 4-7 days every 3 weeks.