Creating Terrestrialized Polypterus : A proposal for a long term experiment in line breeding.

Zmouvek

Exodon
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I have read two studies regarding developmental plasticity in bichirs, raising them on land to see how they change, and I was thinking.
We should do a long term project of line breeding Bichirs for land hardiness, and walking ability.
Mexican Bichir Study
Standen Bichirs
I believe a project like this has promise, bichirs have been successfully reared on land, and, we can measure their walking ability by simple tests. I don't have the means to do this myself, but I hope someone will take my idea and make something of it.
It would be a boon to science to recreate tetrapod evolution.
 

Cal Amari

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I have to say I disagree, Bichirs have been around for a few hundred million years and have chosen or evolved to remain aquatic, they've adapted to survive during dry periods, not leaving available water sources regularly like other semi aquatic animals. The point of science is to help us understand the world around us, not to reshape it on a whim.
 

Zmouvek

Exodon
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I have to say I disagree, Bichirs have been around for a few hundred million years and have chosen or evolved to remain aquatic, they've adapted to survive during dry periods, not leaving available water sources regularly like other semi aquatic animals. The point of science is to help us understand the world around us, not to reshape it on a whim.
The reason that this would be a boon to science, is that it would be a very thorough analogue of the transition tetrapods made to land in the Devonian. Bichir also simply haven had any reason to evolve more traits for land niches, since the were filled, by tetrapods...
 

Fallen_Leaves16

Dovii
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The reason that this would be a boon to science, is that it would be a very thorough analogue of the transition tetrapods made to land in the Devonian. Bichir also simply haven had any reason to evolve more traits for land niches, since the were filled, by tetrapods...
Simply put, nobody is going to be successful at forcing bichirs to rapidly evolve into anything even remotely closer to tetrapods than they are now.
Bichirs are bichirs; they're not tetrapods and never will be; much in the same manner as the fact that you can't selectively breed axolotls to become fish. Assuming that they'd even reproduce, after generations of terrestrial life, they might develop slightly different characteristics, but you can't forcibly overwrite millions of years of genetic changes in a matter of centuries; a better means of studying tetrapod evolution would probably be salamanders, I'd think.

It'd also raise some concerns with ethics- if PETA catches news of some madman breeding fish to live on land, I'd reckon they'd be on you faster than a bunch of Jehovah's Witnesses, lol.
 

Zmouvek

Exodon
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Simply put, nobody is going to be successful at forcing bichirs to rapidly evolve into anything even remotely closer to tetrapods than they are now.
Bichirs are bichirs; they're not tetrapods and never will be; much in the same manner as the fact that you can't selectively breed axolotls to become fish. Assuming that they'd even reproduce, after generations of terrestrial life, they might develop slightly different characteristics, but you can't forcibly overwrite millions of years of genetic changes in a matter of centuries; a better means of studying tetrapod evolution would probably be salamanders, I'd think.

It'd also raise some concerns with ethics- if PETA catches news of some madman breeding fish to live on land, I'd reckon they'd be on you faster than a bunch of Jehovah's Witnesses, lol.
That's what interests me, slightly different characteristics, just like how we create dog breeds. It would be a good example for science to show what changes are associated with more success on land, and showing YEC's that fish can adapt to be better suited to land.
 

duanes

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One of the reasons I moved to, and keep Panamanian biotope tanks, is Panama seems to be a tiny hotbed of evolution.
There are species here, that don't exist in either South America, or north in Central America, and these species may have only taken 3 million years to develop.
The time since the countries of Panama and Costa Rica emerged from the sea, thru either plate tectonics, or volcanism (or both).
Darienheros calobrense, and Isthmoheros tuyrensis, are each cichlids in a a monophillic genus, and each are only found in snd slightly east of the Darien in eastern Panama.
IMG_5956.jpegIMG_0839.jpeg
There are also a number of species here that originated in South America, and migrated here, and over that 3 million years, remain part of their S American genus, and that evolved into separate species.
Andinoacara coerleopunctatus, only member of the genus to be found this far north, but has at least 6 remaining species in S America.
IMG_6077.jpeg
Chaetostoma fischeri, found in the same area of Panama, is a genus containing at least 6 other species, only found in S America
IMG_5309.jpeg
And Ctenolucius beanii, found here, but the only other species (hujueta) found in S America
IMG_5743.jpeg
There are also killifish that survive dry spells here, by hunkering down, and laying eggs in the water storage spots in certain trees.

There is another man induced accidental experiment going on here too.
6 Cichla occellerus escaped from a pond in the 1960s, and have now become a major cichlid apex predator in Lake Gatun, eliminating many of the native cichlid species.
They have changed little in that 70 + years, except...that they seem to grow smaller in the higher pH, harder water of Gatun, than they do in the soft, low pH waters of Amazonia.
Another is the Oscar that has a significant presence in lake Gatun, probably released by aquarists when they outgrew tanks, our decades.
Another soft water, low pH species, where perhaps only 1 or 2 of each spawn of thousands were able to survive, but have adapted to its high pH hard waters to become a major player in the lake.

It'd be interesting to compare and check if, or how each of these DNA has changed from its ancestors, in these longer term happenstance situations.
 
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Backfromthedead

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I think what youre trying to suggest is that bichirs could be especially suited to catastrophic evolution/punctuated equilibrium/etc and possibly are already equipped with the mechanisms to quickly adapt to catastrophic drought or other rapidly changing environmental conditions. Its an interesting thought but good luck trying to convince the narrow minds here of anything other than the commonly accepted theories on evolution.

In the case of the bichir, i believe this has been extensively researched already--by a great many legitimate institutions at that. The common theory is that they evolved their abilities as a response to periodic drought. I think the jurys still out for why the tetrapods ultimately decided to walk on land but i dont think it was analogous at all to bichirs and i dont think it happened all of the sudden either. The best you can get away with is that they may have shared a common ancestor which is all but concluded at this point anyway.

You could probably make a better case for lungfish with this argument. But even then i would start with genetic research, not potentially harming fish. But like i said there are plenty of academics doing real research on these fish and specifically their evolutionary capabilities already.
We all know theyre tough fish, no need for an endurance experiment of their survival instincts to prove they are not tetrapods which we already know.
 
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jjohnwm

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If you are trying to prove that evolution exists, then you are faced with a simple problem. Those that believe in evolution...already have abundant evidence and a firm acceptance of the facts. Those that don't...will not be swayed by anything you come up with.

But evolution is change through natural selection. You are proposing forced change through unnatural selection. It's a stunt, and proves nothing. There's a reason why nobody has discovered a wild naturally-occurring population of poodles.

I always love threads like this. "Hey, I've got a great idea! Now that it has occurred me, I haven't the time or resources or ability or focus to follow through with it; who wants to do the heavy lifting? Come on, it'll be fun!" 🙄
 

Zmouvek

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Dec 2, 2022
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"In the case of the bichir, i believe this has been extensively researched already--by a great many legitimate institutions at that. The common theory is that they evolved their abilities as a response to periodic drought. I think the jurys still out for why the tetrapods ultimately decided to walk on land but i dont think it was analogous at all to bichirs and i dont think it happened all of the sudden either. The best you can get away with is that they may have shared a common ancestor which is all but concluded at this point anyway."

So my idea is more specifically about using this as a method to show a water-land transition, just like the Belyaev Foxes and the wolf-dog transition, it's an analogue, with the bonus of being really cool, imagine keeping a bichir in an ultra shallow setup, where it crosses a little sandbar to move between sections of the setup. Just like how some people keep Belyaev foxes as pets.
 

Zmouvek

Exodon
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Dec 2, 2022
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If you are trying to prove that evolution exists, then you are faced with a simple problem. Those that believe in evolution...already have abundant evidence and a firm acceptance of the facts. Those that don't...will not be swayed by anything you come up with.

But evolution is change through natural selection. You are proposing forced change through unnatural selection. It's a stunt, and proves nothing. There's a reason why nobody has discovered a wild naturally-occurring population of poodles.

I always love threads like this. "Hey, I've got a great idea! Now that it has occurred me, I haven't the time or resources or ability or focus to follow through with it; who wants to do the heavy lifting? Come on, it'll be fun!" 🙄
Not what im trying to do... The idea is to use this to show what traits are associated with success on land. Especially what BEHAVIORS are integral to this.
 
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