Mouth Almighty Cardinalfish (G. aprion)

[Fallen_Leaves16]

Quick update: All five are reasonably stable eaters and are feeding well on a mix of f/t krill, silversides, tiny dubia roaches (only one taker, but dubias are one of the only things it eats), ghost shrimp, and bloodworms. Speaking of bloodworms, L latapy10 , turns out 3/5 of them will willingly take f/t bloodworms; they single out a worm and quickly vacuum it up. Hardly efficient, but at least they're eating. None of them have startlingly concave bellies anymore and I think they may have grown a slight bit (more likely wishful thinking on my part, though). Might have to move them to a separate tank; they're quite timid and only eat if no other fish are around to claim their potential meal. Forgot to mention earlier that the very first mouth almighty I kept last year had recurring bouts of lymphocystis that stopped after about a month and a half after obtainment, but no such issues seem present in the current group I have. Unfortunately, that first mouth almighty apparently got eaten by an overzealous bichir a good couple months back. Rather disappointing to hear, but at least that fish apparently hit 4" before its death.
One of them constantly hovers at the surface (incidentally the skinniest one), compared to the others, who all sit at varying positions within the water column. Thought this was an illness at first, but on further consideration it may just be a particular way that fish prefers to hunt, as it seems to prefer live dubias and floating chunks of krill to sinking food items. Not necessarily a poor eater, just a picky one.
I also bought a new container of krill from the fish store; I usually buy the San Francisco Bay brand for krill (comes in a bag as a solid chunk), because fish seem to like it better, but they didn't have any, so I bought IQF Pro Salt frozen krill instead. Unfortunately, it seems rather salty and unappetizing to the fish (which I should've anticipated after reading the label) and I have zero takers for that (even the Duriglanis spat it out). Should I rinse the krill and try to get rid of as much salt as possible, or will that be detrimental to the nutritional content and/or structural integrity of it?
I apologize about the lack of pictures; haven't had much time lately, and I keep forgetting to take some photos of them.

 

[Fallen_Leaves16]

Very overdue update: As of 4/28/23, all five have died from uncertain circumstances. Fish were doing remarkably well until ~4/18 or so, when I wasn't able to find one during feeding time. Thought it rather odd, as all five were plainly visible just hours before in good health. I ransacked the tank, only to find it somehow wedged in the outtake of the canister filter. Upon extraction, the fish was quite limp for some while; it just drifted about for a bit until it hit the glass and went insane, performing wide, rapid loops until it breached the surface and hit the lid. Seemed to return back to a normal state after that, though significant bodily damage was visible and the fish had somehow become incredibly emaciated. The fish was panting and clearly distressed, but as a piece of krill floated by, it immediately struck at it and ate the food with great vigor. The fins were, oddly enough, heavily tattered in a way that resembled heavy bacterial damage, and open lesions on the fish were surrounded with white, decaying skin. Small, white tubercles of varying size, probably lymphocystis (the one illness that, IME, seems to affect pretty much every single G. aprion under my care for some time before subsiding), were intermittently present. This was something I had definitely not noticed in the morning, and I tend to check on each specific fish (well, the ones plainly visible, at any rate) so that I can discern if anything goes wrong during the night. All five were healthy, and came up to the glass in hopes of food. The largest one had a small white lump near the base of the caudal (likely lymphocystis- this fish was one of the last survivors and the lump eventually receded) but it was minimal and did not seem to affect the fish at all. Regardless of that, the very fish that became ill was definitely in evidently good health, which puzzles me; I highly doubt any disease would afflict a fish that rapidly. Came to the conclusion that the fish just shoved itself into the filter outtake and got roughed up in the process, but I still had my doubts. The fish perished in the night, as it was not anywhere to be seen in the morning; was unable to procure the corpse, however. I'm assuming it got torn up and nibbled at by the various denizens of the tank.
Three days later, another fish fell ill- did not force itself into various places, but had clamped fins and stressed colors. Fins were starting to shred, and tiny white lumps appeared all over the fish. Resembled an odd protozoan infection of sorts. White ulcers, characteristic of bacterial infections, appeared in a few places on the fish. Isolated the individual in a 5.5 quarantine and treated with Kanamycin and light salt. Fish died the following morning with no visible improvements throughout the evening and night. Next day, another fish was found dying of the same problem (was sideways on the substrate), but it did not look as worse off and still attempted to swim and eat- mouthed at a piece of krill for about a minute and a half before spitting it out. Euthanized with clove oil. Remaining two were placed in a ~15G, daily 90% water changes, salt, neomycin, API General Cure (don't really use the stuff much, but wasn't sure what to do, so decided to try). They were doing quite well for another four or so days, with all traces of illness completely gone. During this time, I gradually lowered the dose of the General Cure and stopped adding as much salt. On the fifth day, both were found dead, one with some probable traces of the illness that killed the others and one with not even a single blemish. Still uncertain as to what happened. Standard diet was SF Bay brand f/t krill soaked in VitaChem, some bloodworms, ghost shrimp when available, chopped silversides (mostly tail bit) soaked in VitaChem, and small NorthFin Carnivore pellet pieces (only very occasionally accepted), as well as NLS Cichlid pellets (also almost never taken). Water parameters of main tank were consistently at 0 ppm for both ammonia and nitrite, 15-20 for nitrate, 6.7 for pH, ~200 in terms of TDS, and 25 or so degrees Celsius. Quarantine were both the same in terms of TDS, pH, and temp; zeros across the board for nitrate, nitrite, and ammonia d/t being uncycled and frequent, large water changes. Main tank was taken down, cleaned with a bleach/water mix, and left to dry for ~18hrs; tank "hardscape" (random pleco caves, bathroom floor tiles, misc. wood, some plants) were all dipped in bleach and thoroughly rinsed. Plants were in a bucket overnight, and said "hardscape" was left to dry. Filter was completely cleaned in a similar process (pipes and fixtures included) and was seeded with media from a different tank. No other fish fell ill of the disease, but a breeding group of M. kamaka died from a supposedly similar illness (was away when they died; apparently fell ill shortly after and clung to life until right before I returned). Think it was just a typical bacterial infection of sorts, though, based on pictures and video I was provided.
I guess that concludes the unfortunate G. aprion endeavor; until I figure out what went wrong I'd probably be better off staying away from keeping this species again.
Had pictures, but seem to have lost all of them (also lost all my pics of my baenschi Inca pair as well, somehow). Will go back and check again, as I know pictures are the best means of gathering a decent diagnosis, and they were fascinating fish to behold anyways. They changed a lot from the time I got them to the point before the first one died; all darkened in colour and "thickened" up some. Wish they didn't have to die; their mannerisms were very unique and they added quite the unique element to a community tank.

 

[Fallen_Leaves16]

Had an epiphany today- every single G. aprion I had was visibly unhealthy and often took some conditioning the fish store hadn't provided to get them "back on their feet", so to speak. The process (basic antiprotozoal meds, diligent feedings) I used upon obtaining them wasn't really complicated at all, and even providing a fair amount of food would be sufficient to get them in better shape; however, the fish store hadn't done that with either one of the two batches (one from either early 2022 or late 2021, and the one from which I got the five), evident by their emaciated appearance upon obtainment. First batch had been at the store for a good couple of months, while the second was only at the store for a month. This should've been more than enough time to properly establish the fish, but that didn't end up happening for some reason. Also, it turns out that they aren't supposed to need daily feedings to maintain a stable weight. Furthermore, a nearby store that had carried mouth almighties once reportedly kept them in nearly full-strength salt, much to my surprise- when I inquired further, I was given the info that G. aprion was frequently imported in varying degrees of brackish. I do not know how true this statement was, but it could possibly explain why the fish I obtained seemed weak and rather susceptible to lymphocystis and other illnesses. Additionally, I found in hindsight that thiaminase would still likely have been a long-term issue, despite the VitaChem (realized after watching some of TBTB's past videos again) due to the thiaminase-rich foods the mouth almighties preferred. All this has led me to believe that if I were to try and keep this species again, I would have to:
-find some that were actually healthy and kept/acclimatized properly
-keep them in light brackish (if imported in brackish)
-feed them foods with no thiaminase content (likely difficult; not sure of any commonly-available alternatives that they'd probably take)
in addition to the things I was already doing while keeping them, if I want long-term success and a chance at spawning.

 

[jjohnwm]

Sorry to hear this; results like this are not uncommon when dealing with unique and infrequently-seen aquarium fish about which only sparse information is available.

Two observations/comments/questions:

First...if these guys are frequently collected in brackish or even marine water...isn't keeping them in full fresh water at a pH of 6.7 a bit counterintuitive? I have virtually no brackish experience, but my gut feeling would be to maintain a higher pH, maybe around 7.5 or 8...or am I out to lunch here? Wouldn't be the first time...

Second...again, a fairly generalized comment, but...there are plenty of predatory fish that feed upon relatively large prey items and will do very on every-other-day feedings or even once-weekly...but I think that idea applies more to adult specimens. When small...and especially when small and emaciated...I think that daily feedings, or even twice-daily, would be far preferable to larger, less frequent meals. Even as adults, I tend to believe that the problems that develop with too-frequent feedings are related to the size of the meals as well. Feeding a large meal once weekly is likely not going to harm a big-mouth predatory fish...and I suspect that small daily feedings won't either...but when an overzealous aquarist feeds his fish a magnum-sized meal every day, well...that's just too much food, plain and simple...and that's where the problem begins. I tend to feed my apurensis jelly cat a few Massivore pellets every other day; the meals are very small considering what he is capable of ingesting. He also gets perhaps a couple of large meals, usually consisting of whole fish, each month, but then goes hungry for at least a few days afterwards.

It's far from powerfeeding, but then I think that powerfeeding is far from ideal from any aspect aside from extreme short-term size increases. If your goal is long-term health and conditioning, over-feeding is not the way to go.

These fish are fascinating; I hope you try again with better success, and document it here.

 

[Friller2009]

Fallen_Leaves16 I'll dm you some stuff on mouth almighties later.

 

[qldmick]

Bit expensive but they are occasionally available for sale,
Mouth Almighty 6cm "Delivered to your door in Australia'' (livefish.com.au)
I caught mine in almost full salt and converted to complete fresh easily, I only did it over a day or so.

 

[Fallen_Leaves16]

Sorry to hear this; results like this are not uncommon when dealing with unique and infrequently-seen aquarium fish about which only sparse information is available.

Two observations/comments/questions:

First...if these guys are frequently collected in brackish or even marine water...isn't keeping them in full fresh water at a pH of 6.7 a bit counterintuitive? I have virtually no brackish experience, but my gut feeling would be to maintain a higher pH, maybe around 7.5 or 8...or am I out to lunch here? Wouldn't be the first time...

Second...again, a fairly generalized comment, but...there are plenty of predatory fish that feed upon relatively large prey items and will do very on every-other-day feedings or even once-weekly...but I think that idea applies more to adult specimens. When small...and especially when small and emaciated...I think that daily feedings, or even twice-daily, would be far preferable to larger, less frequent meals. Even as adults, I tend to believe that the problems that develop with too-frequent feedings are related to the size of the meals as well. Feeding a large meal once weekly is likely not going to harm a big-mouth predatory fish...and I suspect that small daily feedings won't either...but when an overzealous aquarist feeds his fish a magnum-sized meal every day, well...that's just too much food, plain and simple...and that's where the problem begins. I tend to feed my apurensis jelly cat a few Massivore pellets every other day; the meals are very small considering what he is capable of ingesting. He also gets perhaps a couple of large meals, usually consisting of whole fish, each month, but then goes hungry for at least a few days afterwards.

It's far from powerfeeding, but then I think that powerfeeding is far from ideal from any aspect aside from extreme short-term size increases. If your goal is long-term health and conditioning, over-feeding is not the way to go.

These fish are fascinating; I hope you try again with better success, and document it here.

Apologies for the late response; things got in the way and I somehow happened to forget about this thread.
I had no idea the Glossamia I purchased were collected in brackish, and carelessly assumed they would do alright in a slightly-acidic tank due to how tolerant of different parameters they reportedly were- the LFS had them in a pH of ~6.8-9, and though the difference is still great, I doubted it would pose too much a problem in the long run if acclimated carefully. In hindsight, you're definitely right about the higher pH being more beneficial for brackish fish; think it has something to do with fluid regulation being easier?

The main reasons for me not feeding them more frequent, smaller meals is due to personal laziness, lack of smaller foods they would take, and how fast they seemed to lose weight; even a day after they ate, their bellies would revert back to a concave state, and the main way to combat that was by feeding rather large quantities at a time. I usually don't feed my fish often; it cuts down on money (means I can spend more on frozen and live), doesn't really seem to affect the fish much, and practically no food is left behind after all the fish had a chance to scour the tank, but I do make frequent exceptions for fish that don't seem to be in very good condition or are poor eaters.
I say laziness because I do think a big part of it was me not looking- and trying, for that matter- hard enough to find a better staple food source for them; the main issue was, everything I tried to feed them had to be in larger, fish-shaped portions or the MAs would ignore them outright. The only smallish thing they would take that I had a reliable source of was f/t bloodworms and mosquito larvae; the tiny dubias quickly ran out and I was very reluctant to sacrifice some of my isopods. If I chopped silversides into pieces smaller than a centimeter or so, they would follow it before losing interest, unless it was the tail end of a silverside- but there's only ever so many silverside tails in a couple boxes, and the small Thamnophis pair I had at the time were very fond of them as a treat; it was inevitable that it would run out. I still have a number of silversides with tails chopped off- my meridionalis is quite fond of them. There were many times when they refused krill that wasn't whole, eyes and all. Oddly picky little blighters, they were, but very enjoyable nonetheless. In hindsight, cherry shrimp would've worked- problem was, they were ~$2 locally, even culls from a local breeder; not many people breed shrimp in my area, it seems. Juvenile guppies would also probably have worked alright; however, they're also somewhat pricey and the times they weren't were rather uncommon. The old one I had last? year or so was fed mainly ghost shrimp, but I ran into the same problems with availability. Had a tiny NTT back then as well, and sacrificed my entire crystal red (low grade, granted) caridina colony to it, only for the poor fellow to keel over and die; was very reluctant to go through that again, and I figured there wasn't much a problem to keep feeding the MAs large frozen except perhaps some nutrient deficiencies over time. Looking back at what I typed, it honestly really feels like myself trying to cobble together some feeble excuse for a grave error I made, which I suppose really is the case.

They really are fascinating fish, though; the perfect embodiment of a miniature Lates in both appearance and mannerism. Very sharp, intelligent fish, with fascinating habits and colouration. If only I could figure out for certain what keeps causing their death...

 

[Fallen_Leaves16]

Bit expensive but they are occasionally available for sale,
Mouth Almighty 6cm "Delivered to your door in Australia'' (livefish.com.au)
I caught mine in almost full salt and converted to complete fresh easily, I only did it over a day or so.

Appreciate the link! Unfortunately, I'm in the US, and I don't think Australia would allow exports.

I don't know how much salinity fluctuations affect them, to be honest; your experience would indicate that immediate transfer to fresh from light brackish wouldn't have much of an effect, if any, on the health of a fish, which has me puzzled about what really was the problem with mine. Perhaps they were just terribly battered PNG exports that had an eroded immune system, and sudden parameter shock allowed illness to take over? Just tossing ideas around at this point; I don't know anyone else so far that experienced this same issue I did.