Rookie Mistake - Help?

[thebiggerthebetter]

Great thread, humorous, informative and personal, loving it! Welcome to the MFK!

AUSDC are a gamble, a hit and miss in the hobby. Some can be nightmare bad, some can be sweet (in some tanks, with some tank mates, etc) but on average they are on a medium bad side.

Usually they can't live together, even if the opposite sexes, sooner or later they will start ripping each other up. Pay attention to the fins on yours. If the rips are not healing up and new rips appear, this means they are fighting already, and it will get only worse, and after sexual maturity (prob a year?), there likely will be a murder. They are territorial fish who don't want their kin and certain other fish, catfish, near their homebase.

It's normal that you are finding conflicting stories - this is not a clear cut fish but a gamble, like a box of chocolates, or rather of some less palatable matter. Yet, it also makes them attractive.

As opposed to African USDC (nigriventris, eupterus) who revert to the normal position often, the Asian USDC spends 99.9+% upside down.

They don't like much current or maybe at all. They do have a maniacal attraction to any surface under which one can hang USD.

Here is our thread on ours and some stories. He lives in a timeout / jerk 240 gal tank since 2015-2016.

Asian USD catfish, Mystus leucophasus

Got it about 2-3 years ago at tiny 1"-2". Had them before more or less successfully back in Rochester, NY. But this weasel proved to be trouble for its tank mates, while still at 2" it killed three rare 6" Harlequin lancer catfish and one small 4" doradid. post #9...

www.monsterfishkeepers.com

 

[Heck]

No, the Pictus wouldn’t let them. They may argue a little but again u may find no issues. All are night time active so should be fine. Only real issue may be around owning a particular space or decor if they all want it. The Pictus too generally can grow slightly larger than some literature suggest.

I'm tempted to try it, but I also don't want to get anyone killed, and they seem to be doing well as-is at the moment - I hesitate to rock the boat, you know? But on the other hand it might be cool to have something else to look at in there. Just one Pictus? I've read conflicting things about if they want to school or prefer to be solo.

 

[Heck]

Great thread, humorous, informative and personal, loving it! Welcome to the MFK!

AUSDC are a gamble, a hit and miss in the hobby. Some can be nightmare bad, some can be sweet (in some tanks, with some tank mates, etc) but on average they are on a medium bad side.

Usually they can't live together, even if the opposite sexes, sooner or later they will start ripping each other up. Pay attention to the fins on yours. If the rips are not healing up and new rips appear, this means they are fighting already, and it will get only worse, and after sexual maturity (prob a year?), there likely will be a murder. They are territorial fish who don't want their kin and certain other fish, catfish, near their homebase.

It's normal that you are finding conflicting stories - this is not a clear cut fish but a gamble, like a box of chocolates, or rather of some less palatable matter. Yet, it also makes them attractive.

As opposed to African USDC (nigriventris, eupterus) who revert to the normal position often, the Asian USDC spends 99.9+% upside down.

They don't like much current or maybe at all. They do have a maniacal attraction to any surface under which one can hang USD.

Here is our thread on ours and some stories. He lives in a timeout / jerk 240 gal tank since 2015-2016.

Asian USD catfish, Mystus leucophasus

Got it about 2-3 years ago at tiny 1"-2". Had them before more or less successfully back in Rochester, NY. But this weasel proved to be trouble for its tank mates, while still at 2" it killed three rare 6" Harlequin lancer catfish and one small 4" doradid. post #9...

www.monsterfishkeepers.com

Oh wow. I had assumed they liked the current as they sometimes hang out side by side, bellies to the glass, facing up, at the front of the tank under a stick right below the HOB output, as in this video: https://youtube.com/shorts/XPivfyTOU80?si=So_7BEmCynkN-mtp

I was planning to get a second HOB for the other side of the tank, partly because I thought they liked it and partly because I'm enjoying putting plants in the one I have. But if they want the water still, maybe I shouldn't do that? Right now I just have a little plastic basket hanging under the hole in my lid where a second HOB would go and I have plants in that, but since I thought they liked the current I was going to give them more.

I feel *real dumb* saying this now, but we're going to cut me some slack because in addition to having been out of the hobby for 5 years, I'm getting a crash course in a somewhat obscure and unpredictable species that really isn't beginner friendly:

When I went to the store and accidentally bought my 55 gallon instead of the filter I went in for, I saw their "Synodontis Nigriventris" - there were 3 in a very small tank (like 5 gallons tops) beating the daylights out of each other. Obvious that should have tipped me off, but in my defense, I didn't even know there *was* a different species of upside down cats, so I just thought those 3 were jerks who were mad about being crammed into such tight quarters.

When I went back later after cycling my tank, I asked the guy if he still had those 3 individual SNs, because I had found their brawling entertaining and figured they'd do better with room to stretch out. He said they still had 2 and the 3rd had died. I said, "his brothers finally offed him?" and the guy said yes. I bought the two survivors, who were also pretty beat up, with ragged fins (particularly the, um, arm fins? Pectoral fins?). It's only been 8 days but I am pretty sure they are healing, and I'm positive there is no new damage.

They have lots of hiding spots right now, mostly under big sycamore leaves - I'll probably need to give them more, and I'm keeping an eye out for a nice big branch to add. They spend their sleeping/hiding time apart, although they don't seem to have favorite spots yet - I find them in different places throughout the day - and they swim together when they're active, with some minor squabbling that breaks up quickly.

It seems like I'll need to watch for increased fighting and keep an eye on their fins as they mature - I'd like to keep them both, but I'll separate them if I have to. I'm already watching Craigslist for an 8 foot tank, which seems just nuts to me since a couple weeks ago I was only planning on having a single 29 gallon. I sure hope I don't end up needing two bigger tanks

I've been testing ammonia/nitrite/nitrate daily using the API kit since it's a new tank and I rushed the cycle by adding a second bottle of BB once it was pretty close (seems to have worked - still holding steady at 0/0/20), but I've been slacking on pH. I just came home with a bottle of hot tub test strips in my pocket (I use them on the mares's milk when they get close to foaling - Fritzi's milk hardness is 500 and her pH is 6.2, which means I'm not getting any sleep tonight), so I used tank water on one of the strips out of curiosity and my pH looked high. Just checked it with the API kit and I'm getting 7.6 with the regular pH drops and 8.2 with the high range drops. This seems... quite high. My other parameters are holding steady. Do I need to take action? What do I do?

 

[Fishman Dave]

With no decor to alter it or any coral chips etc in the substrate it does seem strangely high (depending on your usual water ph) although the leaves and general use of the tank would probably lower it over time. I wouldn’t be concerned with these fish as they are quite (really) hardy. Steady is most important.

 

[Heck]

Well, now I'm going down a lighting rabbit hole. The lights in the Aqueon hood that came with the tank are fine for seeing in the tank, and I bought aquatic plants that are supposed to be fine with low light, but the plants I'm growing out the top are not. The tank is by a window, but it's on the lower light side of the house and there's a big bush outside, so it's not enough natural light for the top plants.

I just rigged up a random grow light I borrowed from my husband to help the plants short term, but I don't know what The Crime Fish like (or can tolerate), so I covered the front of the tank to keep it out of their eyes short term, but of course that's not sustainable.

As a horse professional, I tell clients they can spend as much money as they want on horses (I'll happily sell them a $20k baby and charge them $1200/mo to raise it), and I'm finding that the same is true of fish

Can anyone suggest an affordable, entry level lighting option that will make my top plants happy without upsetting The Wet Weirdos?

 

[thebiggerthebetter]

I think it'd be worthy to read more on their natural habitat and how much current there is. IDK well how much current they like and how much would stress them. I know in our tanks they pick moderate to quiet areas.

I love your writing and the story of the "nigriventris" turned leucophasus is local news-worthy

"It's only been 8 days but I am pretty sure they are healing, and I'm positive there is no new damage."
***This is encouraging news. Happy to hear this.

"They have lots of hiding spots right now, mostly under big sycamore leaves - I'll probably need to give them more, and I'm keeping an eye out for a nice big branch to add. They spend their sleeping/hiding time apart, although they don't seem to have favorite spots yet - I find them in different places throughout the day - and they swim together when they're active, with some minor squabbling that breaks up quickly."
***Perhaps one male was offed, and these two are the opposite genders or both females and hence more tolerant of each other. At least for now.

"It seems like I'll need to watch for increased fighting and keep an eye on their fins as they mature..."
***Yes!

"I sure hope I don't end up needing two bigger tanks "
***I, for one, do hope! We need fresh blood like you in the hobby haha... But seriously, your husband first, fish, horses, etc. second. So may people ruin their precious human relationships over hobbies or fish / pet relationships.

" (I use them on the mares's milk when they get close to foaling - Fritzi's milk hardness is 500 and her pH is 6.2, which means I'm not getting any sleep tonight)"
***Intriguing sidenote! Wow...

" so I used tank water on one of the strips out of curiosity and my pH looked high. Just checked it with the API kit and I'm getting 7.6 with the regular pH drops and 8.2 with the high range drops. This seems... quite high. My other parameters are holding steady. Do I need to take action? What do I do?"
***7.6 is maxed out. So 8.2 should be your pH, a bit high-ish but as Dave said, stability is most important. It is probably within the recommended / wild pH range for your two gangsters. I'd not recommend any artificial pH management - a lot of work and possibility for error and wipeout.

...

As for the plants, IDK if the grow lights can hurt the fish, unless it is know to have a lot more UV than the natural sunlight. I'd consider some normal daylight lights of proper brightness (it will also increase algae production in the tank) or low light plants, like pothos vine is popular.

 

[Heck]

Crime Box got a second filter and Carrot Box (the 29 gallon Marimo Experiment) got one. So far The Crime Fish don't seem to care, and I think with the amount of experimentation I can't stop myself from doing, the extra filtration is probably a good idea unless they start to look bothered. I took out a bunch of leaves and I have an EPIC piece of driftwood soaking - I don't know what kind of wood it is so it will need to soak for a LONG time before I feel safe trying it.

The plants in the Crime Box filter are onions and carrots, and there is an onion rooted in the gravel in the tank as well. They melt and need replacing, but pulling them out and giving the melty parts a quick soak in a somewhat concentrated Excel solution seems to slow the melting, and they suck nitrates like nobody's business - in fact, they're a little mad because there aren't enough nitrates. I will continue experimenting with garden plants to see what can keep up with the water quality and last the longest. I want to try some herbs like cilantro, but I'll also probably keep using carrots - they might not last forever, but they're a big help and it's pretty easy to have more carrots on deck in the garden and just replace as necessary.

The proximity to the windows is a double edged sword - algae love it, but also, I love being able to siphon dirty water right out the window and replace it with hose water right in the window (would love to run a hose to the kitchen sink, but that won't work with our current kitchen faucet and Mr. Heck has put his foot down about me messing with that faucet - he does most of the cooking, he likes that faucet, and under the circumstances I think the garden hose will be just fine )

The Brothers Crime are interacting less lately - not hanging out together but also not scuffling. Bet you're right - at the store, a male was offed, leaving me with either two females or one of each. I completely understand that this doesn't mean peace and harmony forever, but at the moment their fins are healed and peace reigns. At the moment.

Carrot Box's plants are two carrots (at the moment - they will die quickly because they're in there too deep; they do better with just the root submerged although that too is temporary), some baby Water Sprite from the Crime Box, and two orchids. Orchids are the only house plants I've ever kept alive. People say they're hard, and they're actually quite easy - just different from other house plants. Now that I'm getting the hang of them, I'll probably get more - I don't think they're quite the nitrate sucking powerhouses that the garden veggies are, but on the flip side, they actually like aquarium life and don't die.

The Carrot Box is cycling slowly. When it was The Marimo Experiment I fed it occasionally and kept an eye on the parameters and it was heading in the right direction. When I added the new filters yesterday, I took one of the dirty cartridges from the Crime Box and put it in the Carrot Box's filter, leaving the Crime Box with one dirty cartridge and one clean in its old filter, and two new ones in the new filter. If I understand correctly, my cycle should stay fine in there because I should have BB not just on the single dirty cartridge but also in my substrate and on my decorations, but I'll keep monitoring.

Honestly I love monitoring water parameters - any sort of minor lab work is right up my alley - and I think the mares are glad I have someone else to hassle.

WAIT A SECOND - if the API test kit is better for aquariums than strips, it stands to reason that it would be better for checking milk values as well! Do they have one for calcium, or at least one for hardness? So scratch the above - the mares are about to resent the hell out of the fish for giving me ideas.

And speaking of ideas - if anyone has read this far, stop me if I'm insane: once Carrot Box is fully cycled (and I haven't forgotten The Marimo Experiment - that's not over), I'd like to add Hara Jerdoni and some kind of inverts, probably shrimp. IF the shrimp are happy and breed well...

In the Crime Box is a decorative glass skull that was once a vodka bottle. I think its volume is probably 500ml. Right now it's in the Crime Box holding a wad of extra Java Moss that I haven't tied to anything yet and a clipped off piece of Hornwort that I just wanted to see what it would do in the skull. Suppose I were to take the skull out, remove its moss, add extra baby shrimp, put the moss back in loosely fluffed, and replace it in the Crime Box - a shrimp tank within a tank. Think the shrimp would live in there and slowly crawl out one by one, creating a sort of slow feeder for the Crime Fish? I could use tweezers to put food inside the skull to feed the shrimp, and I'd imagine that it gets enough water exchange through the open end to keep the parameters within pretty comparable to the parameters in the rest of the Crime Box.

Is that insane? I'm gonna try it.

Mr. Heck has agreed to hang the grow light above the tank. He's pretty accommodating. He said he draws the line at helping me with the cord, but literally all I need is a short extension cord and he knows it, so again - when he puts his foot down, I'm happy to respect the boundary. He asks so little of me, it would be insane not to honor his few requests.

And speaking of his requests - he still wants a pictus. I'm happy to put one or more in the Crime Box if the risk is to the pictus, but I don't want to jeopardize the Crime Fish. This is worth trying, right?

In unrelated news, Fritzi's pH dropped to 6.2 on Saturday and she foaled - a tall dark colt with looooooong legs.

 

[Fishman Dave]

I’m not sure where to start, and not good like Victor at copy paste etc. (and using a phone to type it is rediculously slow so here goes).

Most woods should be safe as long as they have dried out, ie are dead for a while. Good to soak it as they will stain the water with tannins but this is all about looks rather than bad for fish.

Keep an eye on water turnover rates, as Vic says, the cats will tolerate high movement but prefer the quieter areas.

Like the idea of the veggies as nitrate removal.

I have a pair, easy to tell by size difference (8” and 10”) and genitals, and they don’t get on most of the time now they are big, used to get on more when smaller, but there are occasions they do.

What you did with the filters is ideal and should work fine as your grasp of BB is generally correct.

Yes they do a calcium and a hardness test kit but not sure how well they work on milk rather than water.

Love hara cats and they would be great. (Never tried shrimp - although I do have a rescue blue crayfish).

Pictus are not too fussy over hiding in or under decor so probably won’t fight over a “home” as such, more with their own kind or over space. Just might need to look at sizes of them as young ones can be real small as I have just found out and whilst I said they wouldn’t eat Pictus, they could damage one of the size difference was big. In that case you may need carrot box to grow one on slightly.

Congratulations on the new member!

 

[Heck]

I like tannins, so that part isn't a problem. This piece of wood is old and appeared dried out, but when I cut off the piece that was not going to fit in the tank, the cut part looked fresher than I expected and smelled a bit like cedar. This is a really cool piece of wood and I want to use it, but I don't want to poison anyone, so I'll soak it and dry it a bunch and then see how brave I feel. It shouldn't be cedar or pine or anything like that - I found it on my property and have no idea how anything like that would have gotten here. Mostly we have oak, sycamore, and olive trees. And eucalyptus, but the bark was wrong for that. I have a friend who works at the nearby nature conservancy and is a woodworker in her spare time, so I'm hoping she can ID it for me.

I can't wait until The Brothers Crime are bigger and easier to see - Jamiroquai can usually be found hiding behind the left side HOB, but Blackie is elusive, picking a new leaf to hide behind every day. The current has made a big leaf pile on the right side of the tank, and Blackie is usually in there somewhere - but it's pretty dense and I can't always find him. Blackie is the braver of the two, though, and sometimes cruises around before going back to the leaf pile, so he's never missing for long.

I saw some long white strands floating around and assumed they were at best a weird kind of biofilm or bits of decaying plant, or at worst some kind of terrifying new invader - but then I watched my cat jump up on the lid to drink out of the open back of a filter, trailing her long white hair behind her I'm sure this is something I should discourage, but at least it's a relief to have an answer.

I'm not sure how much to feed. I have catfish pellets, dried bloodworms, generic "tropical fish" flakes, and frozen brine shrimp. I've seen them eat all of those, but the brine shrimp seem to fall apart into bits too small to eat easily and just make a mess. And I often don't see them eating at all, just come back later and the food is gone. They're growing, so they're eating, but since I often don't see them eat, I don't really know how much to give them. I've adopted the same strategy that I use with my dogs and horses - I "feed with my heart," adjusting the type and quantity at every feeding (dog looks pudgy = give him a little less, etc - horses have delicate GI systems and you can't just change it up drastically at every meal, but minor adjustments are fine). It's just harder with Secret Fish I can't always see and don't know how much they are eating.

You guys have been such a huge help - I feel like I took on fish who are way more complicated than a novice really needs, but I want to make it work. The idea of having strange, inconvenient, and combative fish is pretty entertaining to me, and although I was envisioning an interesting community, I'm really warming up to the idea of an understocked/easier to clean tank.

 

[thebiggerthebetter]

I am not a plant guy whatsoever, so I just read your plant stories with interest. I'd say though that you are the first person I came across who tries to use typical garden veggies for the purpose!

With driftwood, again, I am poorly versed, I've heard that coniferous woods better be aged extremely long to destroy or get rid of the tar-like sap. Maybe same for cedars. If in doubt, add some feeder fish to the soaking tub to test?

Your bioload is tiny, I wonder how do you get any readings on the nitrate tests at all. Another general warning, home nitrate tests are are very crude and relative at best, do not treat them as quantitative at all, they can easily be off by a factor of 10x. Ammonia is another problematic test. Nitrite and pH are believed reliable.

I love and commend your respect for Mr Heck's drathers!

Most orchids seem to begin rotting if left in standing water but this is my wife's domain, not mine.

Being a chemist, I am glad to see chemical glassware in the photos

As Dave said, IDK about milk vs water for the API hardness test but it goes by a change in color, so turbidity may not interfere, yet there is a ton of other things in milk, thank goodness Vets would know.

IDK if shrimp need access to surface / air to live. Most (all?) fish do.

Jamiroquai ? hahaha... Set up flat overhangs in the tank and the AUSDCs will hang upside down under them all day and most night, if you wanna see them often. For me, yes, the point of keeping fish disappears when I can't see them any time I like.

Cats can stress fish too much, I read from the experience who has both. If the strand was soft and floating mid water, it could be feces, and it's not normal stool. If it happens all the time, can point to intestinal parasites.

They will eat anything. I'd give them some large feeds they can swallow and judge by the stomach. It should bulge after meal. Feed again when flat. Another point to be able to always see them and evaluate their health and hunger / fullness.