electricity in tank, how to test for it?

[kamikaziechameleon]

And as for motors and ballasts in the lights, yes they will putt off stray voltage in the tank which will not harm the fish, (see the bird / high voltage wire comment earlier) but stick a ground in the water, and now you may have an issue.

Birds don't have organs far as I know that are sensitive to any type of electrical emissions like fish do with the pores in their faces and lateral lines. Comparing fish to birds is not fair. Air doesn't conduct current and birds don't breath water, its a different situation though the principle is solid the long term effects are apparent in anecdotal testimonies. Grounds will not create current(as the stray voltage is ambient and not singular in its origin) but dispel the build up. I understand your thoughts and why you don't believe in it, I disagree on some of the points. Not all my tanks will have grounds but all my super systems(tanks/systems with more than 150 gallons) will be grounded(after being tested for faulty equipment) in the sumps.

 

[Madness]

Birds don't have organs far as I know that are sensitive to any type of electrical emissions like fish do with the pores in their faces and lateral lines. Comparing fish to birds is not fair. Air doesn't conduct current and birds don't breath water, its a different situation though the principle is solid the long term effects are apparent in anecdotal testimonies. Grounds will not create current(as the stray voltage is ambient and not singular in its origin) but dispel the build up. I understand your thoughts and why you don't believe in it, I disagree on some of the points. Not all my tanks will have grounds but all my super systems(tanks/systems with more than 150 gallons) will be grounded(after being tested for faulty equipment) in the sumps.

Thats cool its your choice. I have several tanks above 150 gal and none of them have more than 5 volts of stray voltage. But good luck with concept. If all you want to accomplish is removing the stray voltage cause you think it may harm the fish, sure stick a ground probe in there. But if you get a short in a device and your GFCI doesnt work properly, be prepared for some, shall we say, dead fish.

And stray voltage and current are 2 completely different items. Stray voltage, not an issue. Current, big issue. Stray voltage doesnt kill, current will.

 

[RD.]

Madness ....... I fail to follow your logic. If the GFCI for whatever reason does not do its job, then you will not only have a potentially serious problem for fish, you will potentially have a very dangerous condition for human life, whether you have a ground probe or not.

Personally I would rather have a few fish fry, than me.

While I have been out of the trade for many years, I think I still have a pretty firm grasp as to what the potential risks are to myself & my family, if as you say for whatever reason my GFCI fails.

My fish are just fish, and can all be replaced.




From the Reef Central link previously posted .....

Scenario 1. Hot line to water via submerged equipment. This is when a submerged piece of equipment like a powerhead, heater or UV lamp fails and the hot line of the power supply gets in contact with the water:

a) No GFCI and No Ground Probe.
As the tank is isolated from ground via plastic piping and wood stands the water becomes energized to 110 V but the main breaker does not trip as there is no current to ground. Fish has no problem because they are in a situation similar to a bird standing on a power line. This is a VERY DANGEROUS situation for the aquarist because as soon as you touch the water you get electrocuted as you become the path of current to ground. Breaker does not trip as there is not enough time for it to act or enough current to create enough heat. (They are slow trippers)

b) GFCI installed but no Ground Probe: Again nothing happen initially but the tank gets energized to 110 volts. as soon as you touch the water the GFCI will trip within 5 milliseconds and below a current of less than 5 milliamps. You may feel a small shock but nothing enough to hurt. This is the safest situation for the tank critters but may still hurt the aquarist mainly if the GFCI is malfunctioning.

c) GROUND PROBE INSTALLED BUT NO GFCI (Our case of discussion in this thread): As soon as the device fails and a short circuit is established then current is established to the ground probe, current may or may not be high enough to trip the breaker. Fish and critters will die and corals will RTN. If the breaker does not trip (Which is most of the cases) the short circuit may not be noticeable and you will be at a loss of why your critters are dying, even if you touch the water you may not notice unless the ground probe is not making a good ground. (See also Scenario 3c below) This is also a dangerous situation for potential fire. The current could be high but not high enough to trip the breaker, wires heat up, insulation melts and they catch fire.

d) Ground Probe Installed and GFCI installed: As soon as the short circuit is established the GFCI will trip shutting down whatever equipment is connected giving you a physical indication there is a short and something bad for you to fix immediately. This is the safest situation for the aquarist but has the downside that if you are away from the tank for a long time the lack of operating vital equipment may put your critters at risk.

So under this scenario the safest for the aquarist is to use both a GFCI and a ground probe. The next safest is to use GFCI alone.

If I'm missing something, please fill me in.

 

[F1 VET]

SO A GROUNDING PROBE IS JUST DELAYING THE REPLACEMENT OF A BROKEN TANK ACCESORRY? BETTER THEN A GROUNDING PROBE IS BUYING A NEW HEATER OR POWERHEAD TO RID OF STRAY VOLTAGE ALL TOGETHER

6 rbp

 

[anarekist]

sumps ftw?

 

[Madness]

Yes true, you can become electrocuted via a faulty device. But you will notice that current in the water as soon as your finger tip touches it. Just like touching the hot on a receptacle. Your not jumping into the tank. Could getting a tingle on your finger tip be hazardous? Sure, to a very few individuals. So installing the ground probe with a proper ground connection will in fact cause the water to be grounded and in turn kill all of your fish.

I guess you are right when you say that your life is far more important than some fish.

I see your argument, but I still will not add a Grd probe. Never have, never will.

 

[RD.]

I'm not trying to convince anyone that they need to use a grounding probe, I just think the argument against them (as in what if your GFCI fails?) is a rather weak one.

The reality is the chances of a heater (or other aquarium equipment) failing is FAR greater than a GFCI failing, especially a GFCI that is tested on a regular basis. Heaters fail all the time, due to the fact that most of them are manufactured in China for under $10. They can last years, or fail straight out of the box. I have read hundreds of cases of aquarium heaters failing over the years, experienced a few myself, yet never once read about a hobbyist having a GFCI fail on them. I have GFCI's that have been installed for longer than you've been in the electrical trade, and not a single one has ever failed. How many aquarium heaters have you seen hold up that long?

In my case I kill the power before performing any tank maintenance so getting electric shock from my tank is a non issue. But I'm not the only person living here.

If/when a heater begins to fail/crack, such as one of my Stealths did last year, I want that heater removed before it has a chance to blow apart. Short of pulling each heater out on a daily basis, and inspecting them with a magnifying glass, for myself personally, a ground probe/GFCI combo is the safest bet.

As far as getting a little tingle in your finger tip ....... people have died from electrocution due to faulty aquarium heaters. It doesn't happen often, but there are confirmed cases. I believe that a single 200W heater draws approx 800 milliamps (give or take), respiratory paralysis can set in at as low as 20 mA, 50-75 mA is usually going to knock one on their ass, or worse, and at 100 mA ventricular fibrillation of the heart occurs which usually results in death. Also, ones skin resistance can vary from 1000 ohms for wet skin, to over 500,000 ohms for dry skin, and even an individuals body chemistry has been shown to have a significant impact on how electric current affects an individual. What might give you a good zap in your hand, could send the next guy to the hospital, or worse.

Just some food for thought for anyone that thinks that sticking their hand into a glass box full of water with a faulty piece of electrical equipment will only result in a little tingle in your finger.

 

[Jimmy16]

put your finger in the tank and touch water with another part of your body. my 300 watt heater did this to me today. it's one of those recalled ones, im gonna go to petsmart tomorrow to see if they'll give me a new one.

 

[kamikaziechameleon]

I'm not trying to convince anyone that they need to use a grounding probe, I just think the argument against them (as in what if your GFCI fails?) is a rather weak one.

The reality is the chances of a heater (or other aquarium equipment) failing is FAR greater than a GFCI failing, especially a GFCI that is tested on a regular basis. Heaters fail all the time, due to the fact that most of them are manufactured in China for under $10. They can last years, or fail straight out of the box. I have read hundreds of cases of aquarium heaters failing over the years, experienced a few myself, yet never once read about a hobbyist having a GFCI fail on them. I have GFCI's that have been installed for longer than you've been in the electrical trade, and not a single one has ever failed. How many aquarium heaters have you seen hold up that long?

In my case I kill the power before performing any tank maintenance so getting electric shock from my tank is a non issue. But I'm not the only person living here.

If/when a heater begins to fail/crack, such as one of my Stealths did last year, I want that heater removed before it has a chance to blow apart. Short of pulling each heater out on a daily basis, and inspecting them with a magnifying glass, for myself personally, a ground probe/GFCI combo is the safest bet.

As far as getting a little tingle in your finger tip ....... people have died from electrocution due to faulty aquarium heaters. It doesn't happen often, but there are confirmed cases. I believe that a single 200W heater draws approx 800 milliamps (give or take), respiratory paralysis can set in at as low as 20 mA, 50-75 mA is usually going to knock one on their ass, or worse, and at 100 mA ventricular fibrillation of the heart occurs which usually results in death. Also, ones skin resistance can vary from 1000 ohms for wet skin, to over 500,000 ohms for dry skin, and even an individuals body chemistry has been shown to have a significant impact on how electric current affects an individual. What might give you a good zap in your hand, could send the next guy to the hospital, or worse.

Just some food for thought for anyone that thinks that sticking their hand into a glass box full of water with a faulty piece of electrical equipment will only result in a little tingle in your finger.

+1^^^ just finished helping an electrically inclined friend do work on my house and he expressed lots of apprehension with regards to my fish room and electrical hazards. We were putting in GFCIs for my main power lines(for my fish room) and the one for my heaters was blowing it, now I realize it was the faulty heater... I bypassed it not realizing what danger I was putting myself in. This has been a very informative thread.

 

[Madness]

Your argument is a good one. But I still strongly disagree. I will do my own research and get into this considerably deeper on my end. The idea of GFCI on all equipment, is a no brain er.