How do vieja die?

[thebiggerthebetter]

Hi all, I am a newbie at cichlids.

I rescued a couple of these vieja cichlids two years ago in Tampa.

[1] What's their taxonomic name?

Found one today wrapped around a drain screen. It measures 13". They were about 6" two years ago when I got them. They have been in one of my 4500 gal for 1.5 years and always superb feeders. The dead cichlid is quite plum - it never showed any decline in appetite and it has always had a nice plum tummy. The colors have also been this vibrant for a long time, perhaps at least a year.

It has a few bite marks but these are post-mortum. It was never a target of any stress from its tank mates.

[2] Anyhow, my question is: does this death look suspicious or is it the norm for them to die of age while looking pretty healthy to my ignorant eye?

[3] What's the normal range for their lifetime span?

I'e had some problems for about a year with too soft a water (KH and GH of 1-2 degree) and pH not being stable but this has been fixed for ~8 months now. Other than that the water is clean, zero NH3 and NO2. 5 ppm NO3. Vigorous aeration.

When I went (very gradually) from the soft water to less soft water (KH ~4, GH ~6), I have not noted any change in the two vieja behavior, nor in appetite - it has always been superb and they have not been fussy at all. They seem to like catfish pellets but also got a great variety of other foods.

 

[dan518]

If you got them at 6 inch in length they would be less then a year old,, normally you would expect 10 to 15 year life span.
They would prefer the hard water
Vieja melanura I think from those pics

Looks suspicious to me.

 

[ragin_cajun]

Sorry to hear about this. That's a very nice Melanura. They are the ones that used to be called Synspilum. That strain is from Belize, although it may be found elsewhere, too--I'm not sure.

I think they should have left Synspilum and Melanura separate species--but nobody asked me.

They are VERY tough fish, they live a long time, and I've never had one die in my tanks--tanks I've had Hex and Columnaris infections in. They're just solid in my experience.

I'd say it's VERY rare for these fish to just up and die. So think back.....how close do you watch that fish in that tank, when was the last time you actually watched that fish suck down some pellets.

I'd be suspicious if a big Synspilum just died in my tanks for sure.

What's that large whitish patch just under the dorsal fin? How long has that been there?

 

[thebiggerthebetter]

Much appreciate your input, guys.

What you say increases my suspicion that it is not natural and it could be something I have missed or done. They have been doing so well for such a long time (perhaps superficially well) that I have not paid close attention to them for a long time.

[1] Are they able / known to overfeed and kill themselves that way IDK via an intestinal clog or a bloat?

[2] My other thought is that their 50%+ diet was farm catfish pellets (of their own choosing, they could have chosen more of the other foods offered) that are 40% protein 10% fat. Could this have caused such a death?

Now to your questions:

RC: ... I'd say it's VERY rare for these fish to just up and die. So think back.....how close do you watch that fish in that tank, when was the last time you actually watched that fish suck down some pellets.

TBTB: I want to say within 1-2 weeks I have seen them eat. They were in a 4500 gal 13'x13'x4.5' with a hundred of other fish, so it was hard to keep track of what everyone has been doing. I mostly look for absence of interest in food and for changes in the exterior / looks / behavior to survey the tank.

RC: I'd be suspicious if a big Synspilum just died in my tanks for sure.

TBTB: Yea, it was out of the blue and AFAIK without any warning symptoms. Granted my watch was very loose on these fish. But you can see its exterior looks exactly as it did in life, no paleness, no weight loss, no color fade.

RC; What's that large whitish patch just under the dorsal fin? How long has that been there?

TBTB: It's one of my 2'+ marbled pims test-tasting it after it passed. Or could be from the drain screen - it was probably stuck on it for a few hours at least. I've never seen any damage on them before. Again, with the caveat above but I am pretty sure no one bothered them. Not even midas or umbee or flowerhorn in the same tank. Not even banded leporinus dared to nip their fins.

You can see them here on Aug 30, 2016, including them eating - it's not easy but if you pick them out and keep your eye on them, one can see them more or less (there are two of them, my ignorant eye could not tell them apart - they looked the same to me), they keep together (almost always):

 

[thebiggerthebetter]

I have just gone out to the tank and stared at the remaining one. It's a spitting image, same size, colors and just as plum. It seems fine - swimming around, alert, picking up / tasting some debris off the bottom. Then I threw in some pellets - it was waiting for them, ate some.

They have always had such plum tummies that every time they come up to feed I would think how in the world are they still hungry.

[3] A third thought / hypothesis. I've never seen them go after cut up fish pieces but if they swallowed one, perhaps theoretically a bone could have punctured an important internal organ (albeit I note they are careful chewers).

So the question is - would they ever go after fish or fish pieces? I fed the usual mix, including cut fish yesterday.

 

[Frank Castle]

I have just gone out to the tank and stared at the remaining one. It's a spitting image, same size, colors and just as plum. It seems fine - swimming around, alert, picking up / tasting some debris off the bottom. Then I threw in some pellets - it was waiting for them, ate some.

They have always had such plum tummies that every time they come up to feed I would think how in the world are they still hungry.

[3] A third thought / hypothesis. I've never seen them go after cut up fish pieces but if they swallowed one, perhaps theoretically a bone could have punctured an important internal organ (albeit I note they are careful chewers).

So the question is - would they ever go after fish or fish pieces? I fed the usual mix, including cut fish yesterday.

my Synpilum definitely love Tilapia fillets, but AFAIK fillets don't usually have bones in them....I find it odd indeed

 

[kendragon]

When I was in the koi hobby, high fat diet was said to be bad for them. Fatty organs result in early death. Koi pellets are normally 3%-4% fat. The japanese would add Chitosan in the koi food to block the absorption of fat.

 

[celebrist]

Did you perform an autopsy?
Beautiful fish, a real shame

 

[Stanzzzz7]

Those melanura look like they have died from an intestinal issue to me.
They should not look as bloated as that.
Melanura are strongly herbivorous in nature.In captivity they are extremely greedy fish that will eat anything offered. I'm wondering if they have become to blocked up with meaty proteins.
I always offer mine lots of broccoli, baby leaf spinach and cooked shelled peas.
Judging by the age and the appearance of the fish my first suspicion would be deit related.

 

[thebiggerthebetter]

my Synpilum definitely love Tilapia fillets, but AFAIK fillets don't usually have bones in them....I find it odd indeed

I see. Interesting, especially in view of what Stanzzzz7 says that they are quite herbivorous yet indeed very greedy. What I offer are marine baitfish, mostly 3"-4" whole and cut up.

When I was in the koi hobby, high fat diet was said to be bad for them. Fatty organs result in early death. Koi pellets are normally 3%-4% fat. The japanese would add Chitosan in the koi food to block the absorption of fat.

I have to re-read about the koi again because I was under an impression that koi pellets had more fat than that although it may depend on the kind of fats. But in general, fat deposits around organs are detrimental, I agree of course.

Did you perform an autopsy?
Beautiful fish, a real shame

No. Having performed many dozens of autopsies over the years, I became disillusioned in my abilities to tell anything about why a fish had died... I need to learn lots and lots more about what to look for, what's normal and what's not, to become a self-made fish surgeon so to speak. But it is frozen, so I have the specimen.

Those melanura look like they have died from an intestinal issue to me.
They should not look as bloated as that.
Melanura are strongly herbivorous in nature.In captivity they are extremely greedy fish that will eat anything offered. I'm wondering if they have become to blocked up with meaty proteins.
I always offer mine lots of broccoli, baby leaf spinach and cooked shelled peas.
Judging by the age and the appearance of the fish my first suspicion would be deit related.

Thanks for the info. Only one died, the other looks ok. Yea, I was afraid that these big tummies might not have been healthy, that's why I am looking to you guys, cichlid experts. They are super greedy, I agree. I never offer any terrestrial vegetables to them. I offer wafers, flakes, etc. containing algae but it's a small fraction of the overall offering and IDK how much of that the viejas partake.

If it was a blockage, wouldn''t you expect a prolonged suffering / illness with the usual exterior symptoms? Or can it happen quickly and can the fish remain vibrant-looking through it all til death?