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moe214

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moe214 moe214 i actually there is a lot of debate on this. Seen folks adversely against large WC even like 50% or higher, while others believe 90% will do nothing. I'd just do what's you're comfortable with. For me I'll probably stick to 60% every other day.
Well I've done up to 90% wc before when I had few fish and would put them in a bucket, I'd rinse the gravel clean the filters out wipe the tank down etc. but that was once in a blue when I did that and that was when I was in 5th grade with a juvenile oscar, rainbow shark, and maybe a jack Dempsey in a 55g. I'd never go overboard like that now knowing more about bb. But I do do a large fin level wc every other week, and then a 40% the next week now. But daily, I would never do 90%. Especially if I'm planning to do so for a week or more. But as you said to each their own. If it is such controversy, it's rude of someone to say people are misinforming, especially when you have no evidence to back you up. But hopefully he will provide links and we can learn something new. Other wise to each their own I guess
 

koltsixx

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While the spread of misinformation is an important issue that we should strive to stifle. I would be hesitant to call anything definitively misinformation unless I had access to a scientific report proving otherwise.

Now as far as I know there's not been a scientific study done either way in regards to size and time between water changes and any correlation between mini-cycles. And I can only offer my opinion on the matter. Which has been formed by what to me would be a logical conclusion based on what I believe I understand of aquarium cycling. However I am, like we all are, only human and capable of error.

Based on my understanding I'd be hesitant to claim large frequent water changes could cause a mini-cycle but I'd also be hesitant to say that they don't. And personally I'd err on the side of trying to come between the two opposing views. Which is doing water changes but not overly large or/and overly often.

My reasoning being that from my understanding the aquarium cycle depends on beneficial bacteria colonies being well established within the aquarium and it's filtration system. And from my understanding drinking water is treated with numerous chemicals to kill bacteria and other microorganisms that might be harmful to the population as well as promote healthy teeth and gums. On top of these chemical such as liquified chlorine, fluorosilicic acid, calcium hyrdoxide, etc, it may also contain contaminants such as chlorine, fluorine, salts of arsenic and radium etc, hormones, nitrates, pesticides, etc, etc.

When you do a water change you're removing harmful contaminants from your aquarium produced by your fish but you're also adding the chemicals and contaminants found in your tap water to the tank. Now while the contaminants have largely been kept in check by the chemicals added to you're drinking water before hand those very same chemicals could conceivably adversely affect your fish and I imagine also your bacteria colonies in a negative way. It's why the use water conditioners is recommended.

That being said I imagine if you do water changes in a large enough volume and in fairly frequent time frames I believe you may negatively affect your bacteria colonies even with the help of a water conditioner. That being because these chemicals will also affect your bacteria colonies since the chemicals can't differentiate between beneficial bacteria and harmful bacteria. And the water conditioner will take some time to take effect and the larger the water change the larger I imagine the amount of time the conditioner will need to affect a change. Unless you're treating the water prior with an RO system and/or aging the water after treating with a conditioner before adding it to your aquarium.

Another possible issue with large water changes are PH swings. Since tap water is under pressure it can contain large amounts of carbon dioxide which when out gassed over time can cause a significant PH swing in a 24 hour period. Which would add stress to aquarium inhabitants. Which is why it's in most hobbyists best interest to age a small sample of their tap water several times so they can get a true idea of their taps PH and see how much fluctuation will happen as the carbon dioxide is out gassed.
 

Hendre

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Maybe why carbon prefiltering, aging and drip waterchanges are the best :)

I don't do more than 70% a week, but usually do since I'm occasionally unable to do my waterchanges, especially now that I don't get home before 5/6 most schooldays
 
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Hendre

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you won't cause your cycle to crash even with 90% daily water changes... I don't know why people insist in spreading false information on the forums..
With a large and well established filter system maybe enough BB will survive but I agree with koltsixx koltsixx and long term may not work if it really does shock BB when large water changes are done
 
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koltsixx

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Maybe why carbon prefiltering, aging and drip waterchanges are the best :)

I don't do more than 70% a week, but usually do since I'm occasionally unable to do my waterchanges, especially now that I don't get home before 5/6 most schooldays
Wes mentioned Carbon being a possible cause for HITH and it has been the subject of debate as have many of the suspected causes for HITH. From my understanding it's definitively been linked to specifically causing it in Marine fish such as Tangs.

However I don't know if there's been any such established link with freshwater fish. I do know how ever that some hobbyist have stated that their fish with HITH seemed to improve when activated carbon was removed or when the fish was moved to an already established tank that didn't use carbon.

It's subject to conjecture but I would stay away from carbon just in case. How ever I do agree aging maybe the best method for water changes for an aqaurium.

With a large and well established filter system maybe enough BB will survive but I agree with koltsixx koltsixx and long term may not work if it really does shock BB when large water changes are done
Thanks, I'm of course not stating it as fact but like with the carbon I like to err on the side of caution and I believe there's logical reasoning behind not doing frequent overly large water changes.

As a hobbyist I've read I should use aquarium water to clean my filter media and I believe it was for the reasons I mentioned. Which is that the chemicals in the tap water could kill the beneficial bacteria. As such I imagine doing a large enough water change will effect the bacteria in a filtration system because the chemicals are not as diluted as it would be when changing smaller amounts of water over time. And considering the large turnover rate of most filters I imagine quite a bit of those chemicals will invade the filter before the water conditioner can take effect because of the higher concentration levels of said chemicals.

Again unless one is pretreating the water before introduction to the aquarium. I like to do water changes that are moderate but not small(about 35%) water changes done every 2-3 days which also gives the waters PH time to stabilize. Of course IMHO a drip system would be optimal combined with water changes but I currently can't run such a system.
 

Hendre

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Wes mentioned Carbon being a possible cause for HITH and it has been the subject of debate as have many of the suspected causes for HITH. From my understanding it's definitively been linked to specifically causing it in Marine fish such as Tangs.

However I don't know if there's been any such established link with freshwater fish. I do know how ever that some hobbyist have stated that their fish with HITH seemed to improve when activated carbon was removed or when the fish was moved to an already established tank that didn't use carbon.

It's subject to conjecture but I would stay away from carbon just in case. How ever I do agree aging maybe the best method for water changes for an aqaurium.
I'm sure running water through a carbon prefilter to remove the chemicals and extra things in the water, this would probably have more advantages even if it can be a cause of HITH it may be better still than running it through a carbon prefilter once than carbon in a tank 100+ times a day. This may help reduce excess contamination and improve the quality
 
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koltsixx

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I'm sure running water through a carbon prefilter to remove the chemicals and extra things in the water, this would probably have more advantages even if it can be a cause of HITH it may be better still than running it through a carbon prefilter once than carbon in a tank 100+ times a day. This may help reduce excess contamination and improve the quality
Possibly again I choose to err on the side of caution. As is RO water itself needs to be remineralized and I've always been of the mind that you can have too much of a good thing. Like pure oxygen which Arnall Patz linked to some preemies developing blindness while in their incubators. Even more recent I was reading an article talking about too high redox in aquariums being possible. I always considered redox to be a positive thing for an aquarium but appaarently it too needs to remain balanced. Or like how humanity rejected the perfect Utopia the Matrix created for them and destroyed themselves. lol

Seriously it's just me, I'm not arguing against Carbon or RO just I feel more comfortable when things are more balanced as I naturally feel safer that way. My Father referred to himself as a middle of the road kind of guy. Said he always liked to have more then one way out of any problem and I guess I'm my Fathers son. :D
 

philipraposo1982

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Wes mentioned Carbon being a possible cause for HITH and it has been the subject of debate as have many of the suspected causes for HITH. From my understanding it's definitively been linked to specifically causing it in Marine fish such as Tangs.

However I don't know if there's been any such established link with freshwater fish. I do know how ever that some hobbyist have stated that their fish with HITH seemed to improve when activated carbon was removed or when the fish was moved to an already established tank that didn't use carbon.

It's subject to conjecture but I would stay away from carbon just in case. How ever I do agree aging maybe the best method for water changes for an aqaurium.


Thanks, I'm of course not stating it as fact but like with the carbon I like to err on the side of caution and I believe there's logical reasoning behind not doing frequent overly large water changes.

As a hobbyist I've read I should use aquarium water to clean my filter media and I believe it was for the reasons I mentioned. Which is that the chemicals in the tap water could kill the beneficial bacteria. As such I imagine doing a large enough water change will effect the bacteria in a filtration system because the chemicals are not as diluted as it would be when changing smaller amounts of water over time. And considering the large turnover rate of most filters I imagine quite a bit of those chemicals will invade the filter before the water conditioner can take effect because of the higher concentration levels of said chemicals.

Again unless one is pretreating the water before introduction to the aquarium. I like to do water changes that are moderate but not small(about 35%) water changes done every 2-3 days which also gives the waters PH time to stabilize. Of course IMHO a drip system would be optimal combined with water changes but I currently can't run such a system.
When doing a large water change you can add prime right to the tank (your filter is turned off when doing large 90% water changes) and add you new fresh water to the system. The chemicals are in no way going to harm your filters BB.

I think if throw your tank into a mini cycle its because the water is not being treated properly. this means even a smaller water change can have negative impact on your aquarium life.

Anyhow, I have and know many who have done large water changes daily while growing out adult fish and fry with no issues at all. In fact I have grow out fish faster and healthier using this method.
 
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nzafi

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Good discussion. I have slowed down on the WC for now. My biggest concern is getting this guy healed. I need to get my new temp controller before I can really have all of my heaters connected. Which means my temp is sitting at about 78 for now. It is hard to get a 180g to 80-81 on just 400w. Even with the grounding point in the tank now I am worried about having too much voltage items in the tank.
 
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koltsixx

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When doing a large water change you can add prime right to the tank (your filter is turned off when doing large 90% water changes) and add you new fresh water to the system. The chemicals are in no way going to harm your filters BB.

I think if throw your tank into a mini cycle its because the water is not being treated properly. this means even a smaller water change can have negative impact on your aquarium life.

Anyhow, I have and know many who have done large water changes daily while growing out adult fish and fry with no issues at all. In fact I have grow out fish faster and healthier using this method.
Some how my point seems to have been missed. Without scientific proof your statement is anecdotal evidence yet you accused moe214 of spreading misinformation. In of itself stating personal experiences as irrefutable scientific fact is more a kin to misinformation then someone stating their opinion.

As far as experiences go I myself can site others who are of similar belief and have had experiences counter to yours yet unlike you I don't use that to dismiss anyone else's opinion that is counter to mine publicly. I myself had a bad incident where I did a significant wate change because I had been neglectful earlier in the week. How ever unknown to me line work was being done and despite using water conditioners and testing the tap water prior to initiating the change I almost lost all my fish. The fish didn't react right away(survival imperative makes them act healthy even if they feel like death till they can't fake the funk anymore). How ever shortly after the change was completed I noticed distress. Rapid gill movements and general disinterest in my presence. Then I guess the weaker more fragile species started gasping at the surface. Lucky for me the workers decided to inform us after the work was completed that the water should be safe again. So I quickly did another significant change and luckily only lost one fish. Yet even when addressing this situation about large water changes despite my personal experiences I stated that this is my opinion based on what I consider logical deduction. All in the attempt to not do what you did which was pass off anecdotal evidence as fact. Why because without knowing the scientific reasons behind my experiences I can't say anything definitively and shouldn't therefore present it as fact.

There are plenty of people who claim to have seen bigfoot, does that equal irrefutable scientific evidence that bigfoot must exist? That's the biggest issue with misinformation, anecdotal evidence should never be presented as fact. I met a elderly woman with a Pacu that had to be over 20 inches in a 55 gallon who only topped off her water that evaporated rather then actually do a change. Does that mean I should follow her lead or treat her experiences as a definitive fact that can be applied to all fish and aquarium situations? Moe214 never stated anything as definitive as you did. Yet you chose to attack his opinion by calling it misinformation with nothing other then personal experiences of you and others you knows as the basis to present your statement as fact. I simply hoped you'd see my point and just show your fellow members posts a little more respect.

As for the actual point of whether large water changes might cause issues. I'll start with the fact that water conditioners state that for best results the water should be pre-treated and if not the dose used should be upped for the entire aquarium volume. That in of itself shows that those who created the product believe there is an inherent risk in not pre-treating water. Since their statements are almost guaranteed backed by scientific data, the very same data they used to develop said product and legally market it, it's very likely there is indeed a risk associated with water treated after introduction to the tank and logically any risk of course would be heightened by the higher concentration of chemicals and contaminants in a large water change versus a smaller one.

Water conditioners usually address specifically chlorine, chloramine, and ammonia. Detoxifies nitrite and nitrate and helps protect and stimulate growth of the slime coat. Not PH jumps created by outgassing or many of the other chemicals found in tap water. What about the other chemicals commonly found in tap water? Here's just a few of those chemicals :
Liquified chlorine, fluorosilicic acid, aluminum sulphate, calcium hydroxide, sodium silicofluoride.
Now here's just a few contaminants:
Chlorine, Fluorine compounds, Trihalomethanes, Salts of: arsenic, aluminium, copper, lead,mercury, cadmium, barium as well as Hormones, Nitrates and Pesticides. Things that can negatively affect people never mind fish or bacteria.

I'm sorry but I believe subjecting the fish and bacteria to higher concentrations of these things has a risk? Can you name a conditioner or group of aquarium conditioners that targets all the chemicals, contaminants and out gassing I've listed?

Now I'm not saying your statement isn't true for you or your friends but to make a broad statement and present it as fact without accounting for everyone's in every area and with every kind of tap water could actually cause harm. What about areas that use well water or areas that are really far from the reservoir and the pipes are showing their age or where the water has been contaminated by line work or a natural disaster such as contamination due to unusual run off that hadn't been detected yet? The fact is in such cases and in many where water supplies aren't as stable as others there's a real possibility of causing a major problem by doing a large water change which would subject the tank inhabitants to higher concentrations of contaminants then a smaller water change.
 
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