Washing Your Bio

[Lilyann]

This is such a complex topic that it is well beyond the scope of the average hobbyist, including myself for a lot of it.

My focus is generally on chloramine, as it seems to be what most areas in North America have switched to, or are in the process of switching to, and it tends to remain at near full strength while in the system. I believe that Duane once said that when tested after 1 week their sample was still at 100% full strength. The water treatment supervisor here told me in the past that a similar test showed the same, full strength after 2 weeks in a glass jar. Chloramine does not break down nearly as quickly as chlorine. How much and how fast that break down takes place will vary among distribution systems based on numerous factors.

Yes, nitrifying bacteria can be present in distribution systems, how much if any will again vary greatly dependent on numerous factors. Yes, nitrifying bacteria need ammonia to be present in order to thrive, in some distribution systems ammonia will be naturally present, in other systems ammonia will only become present via the decomposition of chloramine. (once the chlorine/ammonia bond has split) This is precisely why one of the most common ways to resolve nitrifying bacteria in a distribution system, is to increase the level of disinfectant. In some cases water utilities will form chloramines as a strategy to remove naturally occurring ammonia in the raw water supply, while others may use breakpoint chlorination.

Chloramine kills nitrifying bacteria. Chlorine kills nitrifying bacteria. Both are oxidizing agents that are not bacteria friendly, and not fish friendly. I think that we can all agree on that. These are not facts based on hobbyist hyperbole, but facts based in hard data supplied by scientists who specialize in this field. Many hobbyists have seen the results first hand, tanks that keep going into a mini cycle, and/or dead fish.


The only real questions left are how much, and how long? This is where disinfectant type, residual levels, and contact time all come into play.
Obviously someone like Dr. Tanner with such a low disinfectant residual doesn't have any issues, he could probably spray the water in while refilling his tanks and not even have an issue if he didn't use a water conditioner. At least in an established tank full of organics, and the volume of incoming water wasn't too great. Many people have stated that they do just that, and have for many years. For those folks, disinfectant becomes a non issue.

But that doesn't mean that someone on a different system, with disinfectant residuals several times higher (at the tap) could safely do the same thing. Again, residual disinfectant levels, contact time while cleaning, as well as how established ones bio-media is, will determine how safe tap water is to use, or not.

This type of discussion reminds me of many others posted here and elsewhere over the years, where hobbyists are asking how much water conditioner they should use (often Prime), and others will chime in stating 1 capful per 50 gallons, as somehow through internet magic they know the OP's water parameters, including their local water treatment plant disinfection levels, or the residual level at the OP's taps. One capful per 50 gallons, as everyone should know, is based on a specific amount of disinfectant residual. It amazes me that many hobbyists still do not understand that basic element in adding tap water to their tanks. Many under-dose, and I think that it's safe to say that many overdose. The reality of overdosing issues, causing 02 depletion, is why Seachem dumbed down their recommended dose 3 years ago.

And finally, there are systems that during part of the year use chloramine, and part of the year use chlorine, sometimes even different sources of water. And there are systems that are currently on chlorine, but are switching over to chloramine.

This topic has never been answered with a one size fits all.


And on that note, impossible to say with any real certainty, Ben. If the tank had enough decor (gravel, wood, skulls lol, etc) and the bio load itself wasn't too high, one might be ok. With a large bio load (fish/food) and a bare tank, the tank will most likely crash. Same result when certain meds are added to a tank, even an established tank. Been there, done that, and in my case it wasn't what I would consider a mini cycle. Some bio bacteria most likely survived the meds, but the majority were clearly wiped out. The problem with nitriying bacteria is at least from my understanding they don't multiply nearly as fast as we would like. Having some back up established media can sometimes be a real blessing.

http://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html

"Nitrifying bacteria reproduce by binary division. Under optimal conditions, Nitrosomonas may double every 7 hours and Nitrobacter every 13 hours. More realistically, they will double every 15-20 hours. This is an extremely long time considering that heterotrophic bacteria can double in as short a time as 20 minutes. In the time that it takes a single Nitrosomonas cell to double in population, a single E. Coli bacterium would have produced a population exceeding 35 trillion cells."

Excellent information, R.D. Makes me curious as to what my water report says my own levels are. Ill take a look.

Here is my report: I dont really know what to make of it as far as my levels being high, low, or somewhere in between.
https://www.egwd.org/wp-content/uploads/Final-CCR-5-29-2018-1.pdf

 

[esoxlucius]

This thread has been a fantastic read but for many it will still be double dutch. A few months ago I was curious if I could reduce my prime dosage during water changes. I was just dosing the recommended dosage as per the instruction on the bottle (for 5mg/l of chlorine). I had no problems doing this other than the cost, so I looked into it. One of the first things I did was contact RD and his advice basically was to find out, via my local water report, the actual level of chlorine in my water and then i'd know if I could adjust my prime levels or not. I was amazed. I'm lucky because my chlorine levels turned out to be very low, so much so that a quick calculation showed me I was dosing almost 5 times what I needed! Of course i've adjusted my dosage now and unsurprisingly i've had no problems at all.

I think it's important for each one of us to know our own water, and more importantly keep checking because they may adjust it, and then when you have understanding of that you can then make your own call on whether it's wise to thoroughly rinse your media in pure tap water or maybe just give it a quick dip or stay away from tap water altogether, or whatever. Only the hobbyist can do this though, you're hardly going to be on the water authorities speed dial list so they can inform you of changes they're planning on making. They'll just do it and a poor hobbyists crashed tank won't be that high on their care list.

 

[skjl47]

Hello; I have been away much of today so just got thru reading the latest posts. What stuck out to me was how the thread morphed away from washing bio-media. I admit the long discussions about the levels of chlorine and chloramine is of interest and has a place in the hobby. I get my water report on a regular basis so as to keep up with the levels. No problem with this as most threads tend to take some side tracks.

However if this side track is supposed to somehow be information supporting the notion that washing bio-media with a hose is really, really bad then I do not buy it. I did not argue that tap water is somehow "safe" with regard to it's use on surfaces having bb. I was specific in telling how I take precautions because I do expect some bb to be lost both from the tap water and from the mechanical force of the hose. My take is still that gunked up media is more of a problem that what bb may be lost during a cleaning.
Just to keep things clear I do not clean all the bio-media surfaces at the same time. I rinse only long enough to do the cleaning. I gather that all the bb may not be killed off but approach the situation as if it all has been killed. That is why I do the cleaning in stages. Seems to work well enough but I cannot say for sure the long term outcomes as I have only been doing it this way for a few decades.

If I have mischaracterized the discussions about tap water chemical levels then color me misinformed again.

 

[krabbo008]

I'm only to page 6 on this discussion, but I nominate this for a sticky. These "debates" are why I love this site. There is a wealth of knowledge/experience/science in this one tiny post. I am at the ripe young age of 29, so I've had my fair share of moving about within my hobby. I have experienced many different water sources;parameters. With mixed results of different methods. There is no "law" of fish keeping, and we must all adapt to our surroundings.

 

[Fishflyer]

Hello; I dug out an old air powered HOB filter a year or so ago. I had kept enough of them to have parts to get it running. I now have it running on a QT along with a sponge filter. I had to bleed off some air so figured to run that excess air thru the old filter. I may have enough parts to run one more but so many are cracked or broken. I do not know if such can be purchased anymore.

Hello, I have been in the hobby almost 50 years since before the discovery of the beneficial bacteria and Ammonia/Nitrite/Nitrate Cycle was knowledge for fishkeepers. But still managed to keep fish alive and apparently undistressed and healthy for years. Some of the early years I had well water, sometimes not.

Occasionally I have to clean a gunked up filter pad thoughly or clean a filter mechanism throughly for proper function with scrubbing and/or tap water. In those cases I use tapwater followed by a rinse in a bucket of freshly Primed declorinated water. Again, like others I am doing this in a well established tank where there is enough benefical bacteria in the substrate, aquarium walls and water, that I can detect no spikes or crashes. I might perhaps after reading all these posts, not clean my filter and do a water change at the same time.

Occasionally, usually after a long time, I will have to throw away a filter pad because it is falling apart. I will put the new filter pad close to the old pad or in the substrate for a week to two before I toss the old, falling apart pad. I also have 2 filters in each tank and use a combination of Hang On Back, Internal, Sponge and/or Cannister filters.
Like others here also with my Cannister filters, I don't clean everything at once.
>>>I have had it hard wired in my mind for a long time now that those beneficial bacteria are everywhere.

I know I have b.bacteria rich tanks because when I start a new aquarium, temporary or permanent, I borrow water, substrate and or filter media from my other "seasoned" tanks and note how quickly by taking readings that new tanks cycle--within days to a week a with jumpstart from my other tanks. I did take the readings clorine/cloramine/ammonia readings from my tapwater quite some time ago. And I did get significant readings, but I forget what they were. Now I am curious and will have to do tapwater readings again.

I have a friend who has had the same aquarium and same amount of adult fish for years. He of course declorinates at water changes. His readings haven't changed for years, so he stopped doing water readings. My readings haven't changed for years in my stable established tanks so I went from weekly readings to every 2 months.

My new tanks I stay tight with every day to every other day to weekly readings, until they are stable.

 

[Fishflyer]

Hello; I am going to make an assumption, possibly a faulty one. My assumption being I expect there to be two sorts of filter media. First is the mechanical which is supposed to trap tank detritus and to my thinking is replaceable. I throw away the stuff when it gets loaded up and put in some new stuff. (Note- I also replace this throw away media in stages and not all at once because I figure some bb are on it.)

The bio-media is kept behind the mechanical media and in ideal conditions only clean water will flow over it. Bio-media should have lots of surface on which the bio-film of bb will colonize. However in my experience the mechanical media does not trap all the gunk. Also is the build up of layers on the bio-media surfaces that simple rinsing will not remove.
My take is and has been that the bb do not have property rights for the bio-media. My guess is lots of other bacteria, gunk and such will take up residence. At any rate the bio-media gets loaded up.

Hello, I also keep my biomaterial after my filter pad(s) so the most strained, deitrus free water flows through. I also have well planted tanks to help with nitrates removal.

 

[Fishflyer]

Hello; I am going to make an assumption, possibly a faulty one. My assumption being I expect there to be two sorts of filter media. First is the mechanical which is supposed to trap tank detritus and to my thinking is replaceable. I throw away the stuff when it gets loaded up and put in some new stuff. (Note- I also replace this throw away media in stages and not all at once because I figure some bb are on it.)

The bio-media is kept behind the mechanical media and in ideal conditions only clean water will flow over it. Bio-media should have lots of surface on which the bio-film of bb will colonize. However in my experience the mechanical media does not trap all the gunk. Also is the build up of layers on the bio-media surfaces that simple rinsing will not remove.
My take is and has been that the bb do not have property rights for the bio-media. My guess is lots of other bacteria, gunk and such will take up residence. At any rate the bio-media gets loaded up.

Hello, I also keep my biomaterial after my filter pad(s) so the most strained, deitrus free water flows through. I also have well planted tanks to help with nitrates removal.

 

[Fishflyer]

Hello; To use an old Bill Nye The Science Guy statement = "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof." I do not challenge the statement in a sense of thinking nor wanting it to be wrong in any way, but to understand what sort of evidence backs this up.
I get where ammonia and nitrite laden water flows over bb loaded surfaces that the bb have a better chance to take in these toxins. My take has been that bb will better colonize surfaces where some flow in present. What I would like to understand is why somehow the majority of the bb are in the media? Seems they will colonize the tubes feeding water into the filter and any other surface where flow exists just as well. There is a logic to bb colonies being on filter bio-media due to flow but not clear why such media will hold the majority.

Hello, it my understanding that some b.bacteria are more aroberic (requiring more oxygen) and some anaerobic (requiring less oxygen) b. bacteria inhabit areas of your aquatic habitat that have less current and oxygen. Both types of b.bacteria consume or convert various nitrates and necessary for various stages of the Ammonia/Nitrite/nitrate cycle.

 

[Fishflyer]

Hello; To use an old Bill Nye The Science Guy statement = "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof." I do not challenge the statement in a sense of thinking nor wanting it to be wrong in any way, but to understand what sort of evidence backs this up.
I get where ammonia and nitrite laden water flows over bb loaded surfaces that the bb have a better chance to take in these toxins. My take has been that bb will better colonize surfaces where some flow in present. What I would like to understand is why somehow the majority of the bb are in the media? Seems they will colonize the tubes feeding water into the filter and any other surface where flow exists just as well. There is a logic to bb colonies being on filter bio-media due to flow but not clear why such media will hold the majority.

Hello, it my understanding that some b.bacteria are more aroberic (requiring more oxygen) and some anaerobic (requiring less oxygen) b. bacteria inhabit areas of your aquatic habitat that have less current and oxygen. Both types of b.bacteria consume or convert various nitrates and necessary for various stages of the Ammonia/Nitrite/nitrate cycle.

 

[RD.]

My first pet fish was also 50+ years ago, I have made a lot of mistakes over the years, but I try to never repeat the same mistake twice.

I know I have b.bacteria rich tanks because when I start a new aquarium, temporary or permanent, I borrow water, substrate and or filter media from my other "seasoned" tanks and note how quickly by taking readings that new tanks cycle--within days to a week a with jumpstart from my other tanks.

Water from an established tank is little more than dirty water. The "good" bacteria would be in such a small quantity that it's contribution to a new cycle would be next to nothing. Many times over the years I have set up new tanks with 100% de-chorinated tap water, and a well seasoned established filter. (or borrowed media from my various filters) In some cases this was on new tanks, with no decor, and no substrate, (qt tanks, or temp holding tank) so 100% of the bacteria was in the filter itself. As long as the bio-media is large enough in quantity or sq footage, and established enough to handle the incoming bio-load of new fish & food, no problems. The result is an instantly cycled tank. It wasn't that many years ago that people would jump all over me on forums when I described this method of instantly cycling a tank. Many people felt that I should be using dirty water from an established tank. Many probably still do.

Unless I have some kind of specific reason for doing so, I don't take readings of any kind on my tanks.

........................

Jeff, I have no idea what you are referring to? The topic is regarding cleaning bio-media, to which disinfectant type, residual levels of that disinfectant, and contact time all come into play. No one has said that what you personally do, at your location, with your tanks, is wrong. I can only assume that you are seeing things that aren't there.

…………………..….

Amy - it appears that your seasonal average is approx. 1 ppm of chlorine, with a seasonal range of .6 - 2.05 ppm. In my books, 1 ppm chlorine is pretty low, but personally I would test at my taps on a regular basis just to follow the high/low swings at user end. I would assume that during heavy rains/storms is when the disinfectant residuals climb to the max of 2 ppm. So that gives you an idea of where to start, but with chlorine how far away you are from where those numbers are being taken, could vary the chlorine residual at your taps quite a bit. At your taps, you could have a much lower residual. Impossible to say without testing. Again, this explains why some folks can get away with rinsing under the tap without any noticeable difference in their nitrification cycle. As long as nothing changes in disinfectant type or quantity, you are good to go.