1st hand experience vs Care sheets

[neutrino]

I'm no polypterus expert, but the thread title is 'care sheets vs. 1st hand experience', so that's what I'm commenting on. For good or bad this will be a bit long.

Imo Seriously is a convenient first step-- or fishbase, or ITIS, if you use one of those frequently. None of them are infallible but In most cases you'll find the correct name, in most cases you'll find valid information regarding the native range of a species. In most cases you can get a general idea of size, but this won't always tell you what to expect in your tank. Beyond this Seriously is often pretty generic. With Geophagus, for example, they have the same cut/paste paragraph for care of each species. Anything more specific is generally in the "Notes" section, if there's anything there. Okay, that's all pretty generic.

Sometimes an enthusiast for a certain fish is plugged into a community which might be more up to date and more hands on than information on Seriously, fishbase, etc. It could be a forum, which might include not only people actively keeping and breeding a species, but individuals out collecting and observing the fish in the wild, or importers with direct connections and information from the people in the field who know the fish as well as anyone. Some forums have had members who are themselves one of the true experts on a fish or region, Heiko Bleher, Larry Johnson, etc. or members who work with or know guys like Ad Konings. They know what's published, they might have written or collaborated on some of it themselves, and they're regularly in the field.

There are guys here I respect for what they know about certain fish, regions, or subjects. I have pretty good experience with Heros, but not all species, I'm not an expert on the genus as a whole. Same for geos. My personal experience with CAs is limited. There are guys here I respect on those subjects. I know a good bit about food and nutrition, can quote you studies, etc., but I haven't done half the study RD has on it.

But anyone and everyone can be wrong or have incorrect personal opinions. I was an mod for years on what was once the premier English language forum for Cyphotilapia, which has been in decline for years and appears to be gone now. I posted a thread there once-- I'm not going research it all over again-- but the it was an example where Ad Konings had published the suggestion that a particular species was a merely color morph of another species. He was mistaken, the genetics indicated that not only was it not the same species, it wasn't the same genus. They just looked very similar. So--

Thesis one: No source is infallible. Even the real experts can be mistaken. Happens all the time.

 

[jaws7777]

Thesis one: No source is infallible. Even the real experts can be mistaken. Happens all the time.

Completely agree with this.

Im not even close to an expert on these fish, many of us arent. Learn something new all the time. I think the benefit of an open forum or social media group lies in members throwing ideas out there especially failures or what didnt work. We can learn allot from each other even though the majority isnt scientific. It will at least orivide the basics for general care.

Guys like hao, burbotman, king el, fishncash, and cohazard (sorry if i missed any) who have kept these fish for many many yrs are a wealth of knowledge.

 

[beau1990]

Completely agree with this.

Im not even close to an expert on these fish, many of us arent. Learn something new all the time. I think the benefit of an open forum or social media group lies in members throwing ideas out there especially failures or what didnt work. We can learn allot from each other even though the majority isnt scientific. It will at least orivide the basics for general care.

Guys like hao, burbotman, king el, fishncash, and cohazard (sorry if i missed any) who have kept these fish for many many yrs are a wealth of knowledge.

Precisely

 

[Poseidon2.0]

I'm no polypterus expert, but the thread title is 'care sheets vs. 1st hand experience', so that's what I'm commenting on. For good or bad this will be a bit long.

Imo Seriously is a convenient first step-- or fishbase, or ITIS, if you use one of those frequently. None of them are infallible but In most cases you'll find the correct name, in most cases you'll find valid information regarding the native range of a species. In most cases you can get a general idea of size, but this won't always tell you what to expect in your tank. Beyond this Seriously is often pretty generic. With Geophagus, for example, they have the same cut/paste paragraph for care of each species. Anything more specific is generally in the "Notes" section, if there's anything there. Okay, that's all pretty generic.

Sometimes an enthusiast for a certain fish is plugged into a community which might be more up to date and more hands on than information on Seriously, fishbase, etc. It could be a forum, which might include not only people actively keeping and breeding a species, but individuals out collecting and observing the fish in the wild, or importers with direct connections and information from the people in the field who know the fish as well as anyone. Some forums have had members who are themselves one of the true experts on a fish or region, Heiko Bleher, Larry Johnson, etc. or members who work with or know guys like Ad Konings. They know what's published, they might have written or collaborated on some of it themselves, and they're regularly in the field.

There are guys here I respect for what they know about certain fish, regions, or subjects. I have pretty good experience with Heros, but not all species, I'm not an expert on the genus as a whole. Same for geos. My personal experience with CAs is limited. There are guys here I respect on those subjects. I know a good bit about food and nutrition, can quote you studies, etc., but I haven't done half the study RD has on it.

But anyone and everyone can be wrong or have incorrect personal opinions. I was an mod for years on what was once the premier English language forum for Cyphotilapia, which has been in decline for years and appears to be gone now. I posted a thread there once-- I'm not going research it all over again-- but the it was an example where Ad Konings had published the suggestion that a particular species was a merely color morph of another species. He was mistaken, the genetics indicated that not only was it not the same species, it wasn't the same genus. They just looked very similar. So--

Thesis one: No source is infallible. Even the real experts can be mistaken. Happens all the time.

This is spot on, in my view. It's very time consuming to update the information that is out there. The only way to truly have an accurate database for care sheets is to create something community based and open sourced. Then specialists and informed hobbyists can update it on a regular basis. But these kinds of projects take time and money. You have to be flexible in the way you source your information as it stands now. Forums like this are a good way to dig in deep to become a better informed hobbyist.

 

[neutrino]

Size--

If I took a poll, what would you expect most people to say brook trout size is? My guess is 6-10 inches, maybe 12. So, what size tank to keep them in?

So here's a story. Above I said I caught a 24" brookie once. I was amazed, after several years of trout fishing I'd never heard of or seen any remotely that size. Cut throat, yes, brookies no way. Before then if you told me you could catch them 20-24 inches, I'd think you were making it up, or crazy. But in Georgetown Lake, they're there. Back when I lived there, here's how you catch them:

Fish all you want during the day, you won't catch much. There's a low bridge between Clear Creek and the lake. The bridge has a street light. The light attracts moths. The fish come at night to feed on the moths. Fish after dark until maybe 1-2 in the morning, use a fly that resembles the moths, and you can catch your limit. Now and then one will be a monster. The biggest I caught was 24", surprised the heck out of me.

Someone with years of trout fishing experience might justifiably tell me: "You're full of beans, no way do they get that size!!!" They would be wrong. The record is 29", caught in Canada. So what would I advise someone who wants to keep a brook trout tank? They get 24"? They get 29" They get 8-10"? What size tank?

The trouble sometimes with size in a scientific description of a species is it might be based on wild observations, might be based on tank specimens, might be a museum specimen caught 80 years ago, which might be from a population that has changed over time or doesn't exist in that same spot anymore. Whichever it is may or may not be average size or max size or may or may not be the size of those currently collected and imported to the hobby.

Second thesis. Size can vary. Average or typical and max might be quite different.

Like I say, I'm no polypterus expert. I've seen some, wouldn't know one species from another. So I'm simply commenting on the broader subject of personal experience vs. care sheets.

 

[jaws7777]

I think the context of the original discussion would be helpful. I created a thread regarding datnoids. Got a ton of great info. Another member replied by saying how helpful the thread was to them and allot of this information isnt readily available on a basic care sheet. I agreed and gave the example with polypterus since im familiar with them... it lead us here lol.

 

[LBDave]

This discussion came up in another area, I figured it deserved it own thread.

What information do you prefer 1st hand experience from other members or internet care sheets ?

I'll take 1st hand experience any day of the week over an internet care sheet. I can see care sheets being useful for commonly kept fish like loaches, barbs, oscars ect ect. But imo anything uncommon like polys is best learned from other trusted members on forums like mfk or FB. Not that they are completely useless but should be vetted by more experienced hobbyists.

https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/polypterus-bichir-bichir/

https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/polypterus-teugelsi/

https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/polypterus-senegalus-senegalus/

https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/polypterus-endlicheri-endlicheri/

Allot of inaccurate and outdated info in the above links.

Wow, 1000 views on this, 100+ replies. Really thought this would just be another "watch out for the internet" thing. Enjoyed the banter during my brief skim. How it evolved to fish sizes etc..? Looks like it has the usual players. BTW I would never just read one thing on the internet and assume it's good or fact. Take everything you see with a grain of salt. Read, read, read and then make the decision. Everybody's got an opinion just gotta figure out which way you want to go. And I do like Google. Do you remember when all we had was Yahoo and Alta Vista!
Google led me to MFK.

 

[Coryloach]

Im not following you in regards to josh's posts, nothing new here.

It means that the 20 inch specimens recorded in the catalogue of african fishes was senegalus meriodonales and was subsequently reclassed as a sub specie of senegalus. The size is real so is the fish.

You are not following the flow of taught because you did not read the scientific data,but only read Josh's one sentence post on the same,which I also had to point out to you. Hence one sided research leads to confusion and denial as one cant see the whole picture.

No one refers to meridionales when someone asks about sen care, since they are unheard of.

It doesn't mean they should not be aware it exists and that indeed it can reach up to 24 inch or so.

Mfk had a caresheet ?

What I meant is the poly max size sheet you wanted as sticky in January. In that sheet p. senegalus senegalus was quoted at 24 inch.

This is pointless. Your literally proving my point with every post. The answers to the care sheet mistakes were found on a FORUM

Am I? You only read what you want to see.
In this case,Josh created another care sheet and shared it on facebook and later on MFK. He did not find his answers on MFK neither does he seem involved in forum communications about keeping polys or much else for that matter.

Next time you attack someone on a forum, it could be another novelty info provider like Josh or they could be lurking reading this. I remember neutrino being afraid to post his conclusions on research on fish genetics not long ago on another thread with the fear of causing an argument as the information is controversial and not accepted by the general MFK community yet.

Ask RD. for example how hard and how long he's fought to get the right information out there in regards to his own research, as fish keepers tend to be stuck into the "latest trend". Do you really think that, for example, he found his info on treating HITH/spironucleus vortens on MFK?

A forum is a place where information flows in from one or another type of source. The source could be anything from personal experience, personal research and experiments, scientific data, knowledge privileges if one has the right connections or the knowledge could even have been copied from another forum, facebook or caresheets posted elsewhere. If the forum is good enough, and the threads decent and well researched, the flow of information may start going in the other direction, i.e. out of the forum.

 

[Coryloach]

I think the context of the original discussion would be helpful. I created a thread regarding datnoids. Got a ton of great info. Another member replied by saying how helpful the thread was to them and allot of this information isnt readily available on a basic care sheet. I agreed and gave the example with polypterus since im familiar with them... it lead us here lol.

Actually, I posted a link to your thread, trying to be helpful. You singled me out, as you've done before, and instead of about Dats, you started talking about polys, asking me to personally explain the "incorrect" info on that link, although I initially didn't say or post anything about polys. Then you blamed me for derailing the Dat thread....This is how I felt anyway.

 

[LBDave]

It's like watching two friends fighting....