Oh where is that thread? I have some pictures to post of the bass going for a worm
1st hand experience vs Care sheets
- Thread starter jaws7777
- Start date
Hi, I'm not sure what this argument is about or how it started, but I've noticed I've been quoted on an older thread which I'd just like to rectify.
The larger growing 20" P. senegalus senegalus from Lake Turkana are not P. senegalus meridionales; this information was misinterpreted by myself and another; and I have been posting a lot to correct this (even creating new factsheets). The truth of this is P. senegalus senegalus from Lake Turkana have close genetic relationship to the Senegalus (Meridionales) from the Lualaba River than to the other P. senegalus senegalus. This is the reason why Meridionales is said to grow over 20 inch too; when in actuality we don't know. We don't even know if it's a valid subspecies.
There may of been mistakes along the way to describing P. senegalus meridionales, as it could just be a P. senegalus senegalus, but in the eyes of science as of now, it's still a recognised subspecies. To my knowledge, there is only 2 specimens of Meridionales available for public eye; one from the Lualaba River and the other from Lake Upemba which the river runs through; and they might even be the same specimen, as Schafer may of just left out referencing the river itself in his AquaLog book. When you see this, you'll note it bares no morphological difference to P. senegalus senegalus; however we know taxonomy is more complicated than this. The only likely way we will ever know more about this; is if a study recognises that the Senegals from Lake Turkana are genetically too distant to be called P. senegalus senegalus. If that happens, we know if Turkana and Lualaba Sens are this closely related; that Meridionales is a valid subspecies.
The reclassification you're talking about is not a recent thing, it happened in the early 1940s; it only became more known as public knowledge because of Frank Schafer's book. I think I even said later in that same thread it's not anything new; just something which flew under the radar.
I would also like to add about the online care sheets. Where Fishbase say "Max Length" they do not mean this is how big the fish will get; they only display the size of the specimen in their referenced study. Other websites such as SeriouslyFish may copy the sizes from them, and that information which is misunderstood circulates with a different meaning. The size of P. senegalus senegalus being wrong may not be at fault with Fishbase. I can't access the study, but journals do get things wrong often; even misidentifying many Polypterus in the case of Frank Schafer. Science is just a method of investigating and it's ever improving, so old studies like the one they referenced from 1984 aren't completely relevant today.
Online care sheets are great, but only use them as guidelines; as many things are still a mystery to us, and with improved diets and better quality of care nowadays, many can grow larger than expected. Look at Weeksii, Ornate and Teugelsi, they've since grown larger than what my charts said, and I expect many others will too. Personal experience is also great, but never let personal anecdotes justify poor husbandry.
P. senegalus meridionales - image credit Frank Schafer
The larger growing 20" P. senegalus senegalus from Lake Turkana are not P. senegalus meridionales; this information was misinterpreted by myself and another; and I have been posting a lot to correct this (even creating new factsheets). The truth of this is P. senegalus senegalus from Lake Turkana have close genetic relationship to the Senegalus (Meridionales) from the Lualaba River than to the other P. senegalus senegalus. This is the reason why Meridionales is said to grow over 20 inch too; when in actuality we don't know. We don't even know if it's a valid subspecies.
There may of been mistakes along the way to describing P. senegalus meridionales, as it could just be a P. senegalus senegalus, but in the eyes of science as of now, it's still a recognised subspecies. To my knowledge, there is only 2 specimens of Meridionales available for public eye; one from the Lualaba River and the other from Lake Upemba which the river runs through; and they might even be the same specimen, as Schafer may of just left out referencing the river itself in his AquaLog book. When you see this, you'll note it bares no morphological difference to P. senegalus senegalus; however we know taxonomy is more complicated than this. The only likely way we will ever know more about this; is if a study recognises that the Senegals from Lake Turkana are genetically too distant to be called P. senegalus senegalus. If that happens, we know if Turkana and Lualaba Sens are this closely related; that Meridionales is a valid subspecies.
The reclassification you're talking about is not a recent thing, it happened in the early 1940s; it only became more known as public knowledge because of Frank Schafer's book. I think I even said later in that same thread it's not anything new; just something which flew under the radar.
I would also like to add about the online care sheets. Where Fishbase say "Max Length" they do not mean this is how big the fish will get; they only display the size of the specimen in their referenced study. Other websites such as SeriouslyFish may copy the sizes from them, and that information which is misunderstood circulates with a different meaning. The size of P. senegalus senegalus being wrong may not be at fault with Fishbase. I can't access the study, but journals do get things wrong often; even misidentifying many Polypterus in the case of Frank Schafer. Science is just a method of investigating and it's ever improving, so old studies like the one they referenced from 1984 aren't completely relevant today.
Online care sheets are great, but only use them as guidelines; as many things are still a mystery to us, and with improved diets and better quality of care nowadays, many can grow larger than expected. Look at Weeksii, Ornate and Teugelsi, they've since grown larger than what my charts said, and I expect many others will too. Personal experience is also great, but never let personal anecdotes justify poor husbandry.
P. senegalus meridionales - image credit Frank Schafer
Josh thanks for clarifying. I didnt even touch on the validity of Meridionales even existing since it was pointless and would have further muddied the conversation. The topic started on another thread so most of the context was lost. Why sens became the focal point is beyond me that said sure care sheets can be useful but in terms of quick answers and ease of access i argued that morepractical information can be obtained from trusted forum members. Theres really no right answer but this seems to work for me and the majority of people that responded. The big difference is you take the time to update or clarify your information no ego in your game. Lends credibility to advice you give.
Thanks Josh, very nice of you to jump in and give some further light on the issue.
Most likely, but I have seen older tank raised males that look just like the loach above. Very elongated, not fat and sassy like many that one sees in the hobby. And if the CL above is indeed wild caught, just imagine how much larger in length, and girth, some of the older CL's can potentially achieve over many years of dining on high protein diets in captivity. Suddenly 16" is no longer just a figment of someone's imagination, but a very realistic possibility. My guess is they are already out there.I actually saw one 14 inch on facebook the other day. Now there's hope mine grow that bigThis one is definitely wild caught, not grown in captivity.
Well, mine were personally fed only NLS cichlid pellets(40% protein) and Algae max(32 % protein) half and half mix.
That's the best I did so far...
By the way, have you seen your loaches lately? I recall you gave yours away to someone else.
That's the best I did so far...
Well, I'd be glad if someone comes along to share the life journey of those large loaches they raised.
By the way, have you seen your loaches lately? I recall you gave yours away to someone else.
