bugs in a bottle...?

jjohnwm

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It seems like every third thread has some mention in it of inoculating new tanks with some whiz-bang concoction that supposedly introduces healthy live bacteria to by-pass the process of cycling, or at least quicken it. I even see people adding this stuff to well-established tanks to help correct some real or imagined problem.

The idea of live bacteria sold this way isn't new; I remember a Fritz product being sold many years ago that claimed to do this. I've never tried the method, can't say from personal experience that it's BS...but I still have a strong suspicion that it is. A cycled tank relies on large populations of bacteria to perform their magic and turn that nasty ammonia into slightly less nasty nitrite and finally into almost-benign nitrate. Those bacteria require an aerobic environment to survive and grow. A factory sealed bottle sitting on a shelf for weeks or months doesn't sound ideal.

Even if the bacteria could "hold their breath" that long, they still require food. It's well known that a tank with a specific bioload will support a specific population of bacteria that utilizes the ammonia produced. A sudden increase in bioload...from the addition of a large number of new fish, for example...results in a noticeable ammonia "spike" for a few days, until the bacterial population increases enough to catch up with the new bioload. Similarly, if the bioload of a tank is drastically reduced, say by removing half of the fish all at once, the bacteria will die off to a lower level. This won't be obvious until more fish are again added, causing the ammonia to again spike...even though the total bioload might still be less than it originally was before fish were removed in the first place.

Did the scientists at Fritz and all those other companies find a way to put live bacteria into suspended animation, leaving them able to survive without oxygen or food...but ready to spring into action at a moment's notice every time someone decides they want a cycled mature tank right now!!! Or...did a few marketing guys look at some of the ridiculous product claims in the past that have successfully roped in numerous gullible buyers, and then said to themselves "Hmmmm...I can't believe people ever bought that...but they did, so...I'll bet they will be willing to buy this too!"

Am I a realist? A cynic? A cheapskate? Or just an overly-negative jerk with an attitude problem?

Once you have a cycled tank, you have a source of live bacteria ready to go whenever you want to start another aquarium. Using it speeds up the process of cycling to the point where, depending upon stocking levels, it could almost be referred to as "instant". It's also free, it's totally renewable, and it works. Why go any other way?
 

esoxlucius

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I agree.

If you're starting up a tank from fresh though, and you can't get any seeded media from anywhere, and you're impatient, then I suppose the "magic" in a bottle works for some. But if you already have a good source of seeded media, and you understand the importance between BB and bio load correlation, then like you say, it is possible to get an almost instant cycle.

If people with loads of good quality seeded media choose to start new tanks up with bottled stuff then so be it, it's their money.

It's funny you bring the topic up of how BB live in a bottle, when there's no food, or oxygen. I asked a fellow at my LFS the very same question. But it seems the question was way above his pay grade, he couldn't give me an answer!

I also read somewhere that bottled bacteria isn't the same strain as our usual "naturally occuring" bacteria and that it dies after a while, thus ensuring you keep going back to buy some more to keep your BB levels up in your tank. Now that would be a real marketing ploy, though it's probably a load of tosh.

RD. RD. Clear this up for us please.
 
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DrownedFishonFire

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Im a believer now. As just started getting back into the hobby It was shocking to me that those things actually help cycle the tank. I threw in a couple of fish in a brand new 75g over the weekend that technically had water in it for a week I used two different bacteria sources (Fluval and API). Was expecting Nitrate spike and this is the 4th day I havent done a fricking water change! Zero zero zero readings still! Still adding prime and stability. Going to do some water change tomorrow following my gut.

Ive been montioring the 3 roseline sharks in there. 10 congo tetras. 2 rosy minnows and 10 napo cories in there. No issues.

I got 8 2" Clown Loaches that still needs to be fattened up started with 10 in jan. Should have brought the hex sheild first not last. Now feeding them that stuff.

2x 5-6" fat Clown loaches

1 6.5" L114 pleco

In one 55g tank. Finally Zero zero zero w the bacteria additions i got stuff in last week. It does make a world of a difference IMO

Now less water changes as was doing 85% on a daily basis w a slow python!
 

Hendre

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Bottled bacteria are cultured then the pH is reduced causing them to hibernate (Bacteria don't do well in low pH, which is why fish from acidic waters often don't do well with bacteria in tanks). Once added to the tank the pH is in a more comfortable environment and springs to life. Personally I have never had issues with starting a tank with these bottled solutions and gradual stocking. I used a double dose when adding 25 White cloud minnows to a 15 gallon along with some cycled media and all was well. Once you have cycled media that is of course the preferred alternative.

Hit Ctrl + F and search dormant. Nitrifying bacteria can sit dormant for a while without affecting viability.

So to sum up, these solutions still have plenty of bacteria that work just fine for kicking a tank up :D
 

jjohnwm

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Nitrate spike? That's a new one for me. Nitrate, being the end product of the nitrication process in a typical tank, doesn't typically spike, but builds up gradually. Ammonia and nitrite might both show separate spikes until the tank is properly and completely cycled.

If your test shows zero-zero-zero, I would either question the accuracy of the testing product/procedure...or might even say that this proves the bacterial inoculation product does not work; if it was doing what it claims to do, you should expect to see nitrates accumulating, not remaining at zero.
 
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jjohnwm

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Bottled bacteria are cultured then the pH is reduced causing them to hibernate (Bacteria don't do well in low pH, which is why fish from acidic waters often don't do well with bacteria in tanks). Once added to the tank the pH is in a more comfortable environment and springs to life. Personally I have never had issues with starting a tank with these bottled solutions and gradual stocking. I used a double dose when adding 25 White cloud minnows to a 15 gallon along with some cycled media and all was well. Once you have cycled media that is of course the preferred alternative.
Thank you, sir! That explanation actually sounds believable, something I don't say lightly. I've often suspected that the bacteria can remain in dormant form on sponge filters that are allowed to completely dry out, since they often seem to be much more biologically active in a short period of time than seems possible. I'll still stick with dirty sponges, but I appreciate the explanation...nice to know that it was only partially marketing, but with some actual science mixed in as well. :)
 
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esoxlucius

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Im a believer now. As just started getting back into the hobby It was shocking to me that those things actually help cycle the tank. I threw in a couple of fish in a brand new 75g over the weekend that technically had water in it for a week I used two different bacteria sources (Fluval and API). Was expecting Nitrate spike and this is the 4th day I havent done a fricking water change! Zero zero zero readings still! Still adding prime and stability. Going to do some water change tomorrow following my gut.

Ive been montioring the 3 roseline sharks in there. 10 congo tetras. 2 rosy minnows and 10 napo cories in there. No issues.

I got 8 2" Clown Loaches that still needs to be fattened up started with 10 in jan. Should have brought the hex sheild first not last. Now feeding them that stuff.

2x 5-6" fat Clown loaches

1 6.5" L114 pleco

In one 55g tank. Finally Zero zero zero w the bacteria additions i got stuff in last week. It does make a world of a difference IMO

Now less water changes as was doing 85% on a daily basis w a slow python!
That sounds very very odd that you've got all that bottled bacteria going on, haven't done any water changes and yet your parameters are 0,0,0. You should have some nitrate by now if that bacteria's working to show that your tank is indeed cycled.
 

RD.

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Why go any other way?
Because sometimes in an emergency it's the quickest way to fly, and not everyone has multiple tanks, with extra bio media at their disposal. I recall the Fritz product from years past as well, and they have plenty more products on the market today. But not all bacteria are the same, some were not evenly properly identified until more recent times by Dr. Timothy Hovanec et al. See more on that in the following past discussion.

I would honestly love to do that, but the reality is for myself, I have no way in pulling that off, and IMO there's really no need. I am 100% certain as to what the end result would be, the only unknown would be how much bio-bacteria is killed. And that's where strength of the residual, the contact time, and the exact spp of bacteria would come into play. I can't imagine that anyone believes that oxidizing agents such as chlorine and/or chloramine are not harmful to the bacteria strains that keep our tanks balanced and safe for our fish. Obviously both kill fish, and the toxicity of both with a number of fish species has been well documented.

I think that perhaps there is another flaw in the no-harm theory, and that is assuming that all "nitrifying bacteria" are all one in the same, as in the ones found in a water distribution line, are exactly the same as the ones found in home aquaria. But are they? In some of the reports regarding water distribution, it has been suggested that some of these bacteria found within a water distribution line have over time built up a resistance to chloramine. Other bacteria being discussed in most of these peer reviewed papers are not even the same spp that I would consider the primary concern in an aquarium setting, which would be those closely related to Nitrospira moscoviensis and Nitrospira marina. Not once did I see either of those two strains being mentioned in any of these papers. In fact Nitrospira when mentioned is often added on at the end, almost like an afterthought to all of the other so called "nitrifying bacteria" found within the water distribution system.



I posted the following back in 2015, which received almost zero interest.





From the following paper .......


"Traditionally, the bacteria responsible for the oxidation of ammonia and nitrite in aquaria were considered to be Nitrosomonas europaea and Nitrobacter winogradskyi or their close relatives, respectively (17, 18). However, there is some indication that both N. europaea and N. winogradskyi may not be predominant components of actively nitrifying freshwater aquaria (9). In seawater aquaria, however, N. europaea and close relatives do appear to comprise a significant proportion of the total eubacterial community, but N. winogradskyi was below detection limits (9)."




Today it seems that science is more focussed on Nitrospira-like bacteria. Thanks to Dr. Timothy Hovanec that years ago led a team of scientists that proved that Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter were to be a mistaken assumption for many years. Ammonia is converted to nitrite by bacteria of the Nitrosonomas marina-like strain and nitrite is converted to nitrate by bacteria closely related to Nitrospira moscoviensis and Nitrospira marina. With several subsequent scientific studies by other scientists this data is now accepted and confirmed scientific fact. Nitrite oxidation in freshwater aquaria is believed to be mediated by bacteria closely related to Nitrospira moscoviensis and Nitrospira marina.

Paul C. Burrell, Carol M. Phalen, and Timothy A. Hovanec, “Identification of Bacteria Responsible for Ammonia Oxidation in Freshwater Aquaria,” Applied and Environmental Microbiology, December 2001, pp. 5791-5800.


Hovanec, T. A., L. T. Taylor, A. Blakis and E. F. DeLong, “Nitrospira- Like Bacteria Associated with Nitrite Oxidation in Freshwater Aquaria,” Applied and Environmental Microbiology, Vol. 64, No. 1, pp. 258-264.






IMHO we need to be careful when generalizing on forums such as these. I'm all for learning new things, including new science when it becomes available, but I think that it is foolish to think that one can simply extrapolate the findings in a paper that is viewing what takes place in a water distribution system, and the various "nitrifying bacteria" typically found in a water distribution system, where among other things tolerance levels and/or resistance can come into play, to what takes place in an established aquarium. I'm certainly not an expert on any of this, nor do I hold a qualifying PhD in this area. What I do have is a lot of common sense, and a lot of years of experience in this hobby. Chlorine & chloramine are toxins, and at elevated levels will kill fish, and the bacteria that support the lives of those fish. What the exact breaking point is in an established (or worse, unestablished) home aquaria I do not know, nor do I wish to experiment to find out. Well, at least not with my fish. I've already seen the first hand results in other folks tanks.
I have experimented with products such as Seachem Stability, and I can assure everyone that many of these bacteria products do indeed work. They can remain in a suspended state, as Hendre stated, and come alive when conditions are favourable. Ditto to heterotrophic bacteria, which are something that I add weekly to assist me in my maintenance of my tanks. See sticky on probiotic bacteria. Those bacteria keep for years in a dry state, and come alive when added to my tanks. Good stuff.
 

jjohnwm

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Thanks for that post, RD. Excellent information; stuff like this is what has quickly made MFK my favourite aquarium forum; there is a wealth of freely-shared knowledge and experience on here, and reading back through the old posts is very informative. Virtually every other forum I have frequented is less of a learning experience and more of an exercise in frustration.
 
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deeda

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I am attending my local fish club meeting this Friday and the speaker will be Jay Wilson from North Fin USA, he also handles social media and sales for Fritz Aquatics and his topic will be "Bacteria- The good, the bad, the misunderstood".

Maybe I'll toss some of these questions at him regarding bio-bacteria products. :grinyes:
 
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