Questions about epistylis (NO SICK FISH)

[Scrappy71113]

Have you tested your water?

No

If I did not test my water...

1. ...I recognize that I will likely be asked to do a test, and that water tests are critical for solving freshwater health problems.

Do you do water changes?

No

If I do not change my water...

1. ...I recognize that I will likely be recommended to do a water change, and water changes are critical for preventing future freshwater health problems.

So, I have been seeing epistylis going around Facebook fish groups like a new internet trend. And everyone is posting links that all give the same information about it. 1) it eats bacteria. 2) it can easily be confused with ich. 3) when treating, feed antibiotics don't dose the water. 4) don't clean the filter. 5) large daily water changes.

Now, there's a few things that confuse me with this. First thing, why only feed antibiotics? If it feeds on bacteria, why not dose the water? Why not do both? Destroy all food sources and starve it out?
Second, why not clean the filter? I mean, there's poop in the filter. Wouldn't leaving detritus and poop in the filter promote more bacteria growth? Plus all of the water is pumping through this and possibly spreading it?
The large daily water changes, that makes perfect sense. Clean water = healthier fish, but those other two seem like they are fighting the clean water.

Anyone have any thoughts on this? I'm definitely not going to play "expert" on fish illnesses, but to me, it doesn't logically make sense.

 

[Rocksor]

So, I have been seeing epistylis going around Facebook fish groups like a new internet trend. And everyone is posting links that all give the same information about it. 1) it eats bacteria. 2) it can easily be confused with ich. 3) when treating, feed antibiotics don't dose the water. 4) don't clean the filter. 5) large daily water changes.

Now, there's a few things that confuse me with this. First thing, why only feed antibiotics? If it feeds on bacteria, why not dose the water? Why not do both? Destroy all food sources and starve it out?
Second, why not clean the filter? I mean, there's poop in the filter. Wouldn't leaving detritus and poop in the filter promote more bacteria growth? Plus all of the water is pumping through this and possibly spreading it?
The large daily water changes, that makes perfect sense. Clean water = healthier fish, but those other two seem like they are fighting the clean water.

Anyone have any thoughts on this? I'm definitely not going to play "expert" on fish illnesses, but to me, it doesn't logically make sense.

1) The antibiotics recommended are more effective in treating the fish if it eats the proper dosage of antibiotics. Some antibiotics will kill your cycle. Best not to cause extra stress for your fish if your tank is going through a mini-cycle as a result of antibiotic use.

What antibiotics do they recommend?

2) I see no reason to NOT clean the filter if the antibiotics are properly administered to the fish through food like gel based food. This may stem from belief that cleaning the filters and using antibiotics will kill your cycle.

If your tank if properly cycled, I say clean the filter to remove the detritus matter that harbors pathogenic bacteria.

 

[Scrappy71113]

1) The antibiotics recommended are more effective in treating the fish if it eats the proper dosage of antibiotics. Some antibiotics will kill your cycle. Best not to cause extra stress for your fish if your tank is going through a mini-cycle as a result of antibiotic use.

What antibiotics do they recommend?

2) I see no reason to NOT clean the filter if the antibiotics are properly administered to the fish through food like gel based food. This may stem from belief that cleaning the filters and using antibiotics will kill your cycle.

If your tank if properly cycled, I say clean the filter to remove the detritus matter that harbors pathogenic bacteria.

The main ones I've seen recommended is kanaplex and maracyn 2.
There are others but I don't remember them. Not dosing the water to maintain the cycle makes sense, but that "don't clean the filter" thing had me confused.

 

[Rocksor]

The main ones I've seen recommended is kanaplex and maracyn 2.
There are others but I don't remember them. Not dosing the water to maintain the cycle makes sense, but that "don't clean the filter" thing had me confused.

Kanaplex (kanamycin sulfate) does not have to be eaten since it is readily skin absorbed, and just as effective in the water as antibiotic. This will not cause a mini-cycle in a fully cycled tank (I haven't seen it do this to my tank).

Maracyn 2 (minocycline) has not caused a mini-cycle in my quarantine tank but manufacturer (Fritz Aquatics) does state that it might inhibit the cycle. The dosing over the treatment period must be followed, hence no water changes (per the manufacturer). I've typically used this in the water vs feed. It best to use this in a lower PH range (6.4-7.6) than Kanaplex.

 

[Scrappy71113]

Kanaplex (kanamycin sulfate) does not have to be eaten since it is readily skin absorbed, and just as effective in the water as antibiotic. This will not cause a mini-cycle in a fully cycled tank (I haven't seen it do this to my tank).

Maracyn 2 (minocycline) has not caused a mini-cycle in my quarantine tank but manufacturer (Fritz Aquatics) does state that it might inhibit the cycle. The dosing over the treatment period must be followed, hence no water changes (per the manufacturer). I've typically used this in the water vs feed. It best to use this in a lower PH range (6.4-7.6) than Kanaplex.

Well, this is all good to know. Another thing going around Facebook is that kanaplex is pretty useless unless fed. I thought that was odd since the packaging states instructions for treatment of the water.
I have read the oral dosage of the medication is more effective than treating the water, but outside of the lovely FB, I haven't read anything stating treatment of the water is ineffective.

It's unfortunate that I can't just magically snap my fingers and fix a lot of the misconceptions there. I was literally told that doing a 75% water change on my tank was extremely dangerous and could shock my fish, but this has been something that I have been doing weekly on all of my tanks for years with no adverse effects. I can see it being a huge shock if water changes haven't been done in a while and nitrates are off the charts.
I was also scolded for changing my filter pads weekly because it can crash my cycle. I have tons of filter media in my filters and I don't like the idea of leaving poop soaked filter pads in there. Besides, if I leave it too long, the bacteria might actually start to set up shop in the pad which would cause a small crash when I do change it.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just going by my own theory, but it has worked for my tanks so far.

 

[Rocksor]

It's unfortunate that I can't just magically snap my fingers and fix a lot of the misconceptions there. I was literally told that doing a 75% water change on my tank was extremely dangerous and could shock my fish, but this has been something that I have been doing weekly on all of my tanks for years with no adverse effects. I can see it being a huge shock if water changes haven't been done in a while and nitrates are off the charts.
I was also scolded for changing my filter pads weekly because it can crash my cycle. I have tons of filter media in my filters and I don't like the idea of leaving poop soaked filter pads in there. Besides, if I leave it too long, the bacteria might actually start to set up shop in the pad which would cause a small crash when I do change it.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just going by my own theory, but it has worked for my tanks so far.

Large water changes causes shock....... That's been going around prior to the internet and prior to the understanding osmotic regulation of fish is directly affected by the total dissolved solid levels and not PH. PH shock is more commonly mistaken for osmotic shock. If anything, doing lots of water changes will keep your TDS levels so close to your tap water, that a TDS swing will not hurt the fish. There is a scientific paper out there https://www.waterboards.ca.gov/rwqcb5/water_issues/basin_plans/ph_turbidity/ph_turbidity_04phreq.pdf that states fish can endure a PH swing of 1 point.(maybe more, I would have to reread it). Heavily planted tanks with CO2 injection can see a huge swing overnight and it doesn't hurt the fish. With regards to temperature shock, if the new 75% water going into your tank does not cause the water to fluctuate by more than 1 or 2 degrees than you are fine (some fish can handle a swing of 5 degrees..... clown loaches cannot handle such a large swing down).

You can always show them this video on what discus breeders in Asia due to make fast money

If you crash your cycle by changing your filter pads weekly, then guess what..... you didn't have enough biological filtration to begin with. Your tank was borderline maxed out on biological capacity which is why changing out the pads weekly causes an ammonia/nitrite spike or white cloud of bacteria in the water column (organic compound eating heterotrophic bacteria). That's what I would tell them, they are under filtered if they believed that.... Since you are able to change it weekly then you have enough biological filtration in your tank... you can keep doing it. You are right in thinking to remove pathogenic bacteria, you have to clean the biological media to reduce that number and facilitate good nitrifying bacteria growth. Columnaris is notorious for growing in detritus found in substrate and media, and a pain to remove from the aquarium.

 

[Scrappy71113]

Large water changes causes shock....... That's been going around prior to the internet and prior to the understanding osmotic regulation of fish is directly affected by the total dissolved solid levels and not PH. PH shock is more commonly mistaken for osmotic shock. If anything, doing lots of water changes will keep your TDS levels so close to your tap water, that a TDS swing will not hurt the fish. There is a scientific paper out there https://www.waterboards.ca.gov/rwqcb5/water_issues/basin_plans/ph_turbidity/ph_turbidity_04phreq.pdf that states fish can endure a PH swing of 1 point.(maybe more, I would have to reread it). Heavily planted tanks with CO2 injection can see a huge swing overnight and it doesn't hurt the fish. With regards to temperature shock, if the new 75% water going into your tank does not cause the water to fluctuate by more than 1 or 2 degrees than you are fine (some fish can handle a swing of 5 degrees..... clown loaches cannot handle such a large swing down).

You can always show them this video on what discus breeders in Asia due to make fast money

If you crash your cycle by changing your filter pads weekly, then guess what..... you didn't have enough biological filtration to begin with. Your tank was borderline maxed out on biological capacity which is why changing out the pads weekly causes an ammonia/nitrite spike or white cloud of bacteria in the water column (organic compound eating heterotrophic bacteria). That's what I would tell them, they are under filtered if they believed that.... Since you are able to change it weekly then you have enough biological filtration in your tank... you can keep doing it. You are right in thinking to remove pathogenic bacteria, you have to clean the biological media to reduce that number and facilitate good nitrifying bacteria growth. Columnaris is notorious for growing in detritus found in substrate and media, and a pain to remove from the aquarium.

I'm curious, did you ever study biology? Or is this years of reading and experience?

I know it's a personal question, you don't have to answer.

 

[fishdance]

I've been to Asia many times, visited quite a few fish farms especially Singapore each month for discus which I would import.

Regarding the video of discus water change, what most people may not realise is most farms use a large outdoor pond for filtration. Usually 50m diameter. Fish tank water is returned to the pond to get naturally filtered and re-used. The fish tanks are temporarily holding tanks much like a floating cage in a large lake. So nothing wrong with a 95% water change. Water temperature is exactly the same. Fish colour is amazing since they are basically pond raised fish.

 

[Rocksor]

I'm curious, did you ever study biology? Or is this years of reading and experience?

I know it's a personal question, you don't have to answer.

Only college biology plus minor courses in different type of biological sciences because it was necessary credits for graduating. My major had nothing to do with biology, just something I found fascinating.

 

[Scrappy71113]

I've been to Asia many times, visited quite a few fish farms especially Singapore each month for discus which I would import.

Regarding the video of discus water change, what most people may not realise is most farms use a large outdoor pond for filtration. Usually 50m diameter. Fish tank water is returned to the pond to get naturally filtered and re-used. The fish tanks are temporarily holding tanks much like a floating cage in a large lake. So nothing wrong with a 95% water change. Water temperature is exactly the same. Fish colour is amazing since they are basically pond raised fish.

That's amazing! I would love to have a setup like that! A pond filtered aquarium would be so freaking nice!