All Fish Dead

Backfromthedead

Potamotrygon
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Years ago when I was caring for fish the talk was making sure the water temperature during the water change was within 1 degree of each other. If you had a drastic water temperature difference and changed a lot of water then you could have thrown the fish into thermal shock including any beneficial bacteria in the sump. Killing off the bacteria in the sump could explain the cloudiness in the water also if you are changing out a lot of water you are defiantly changing the chemistry of the water. All of this combined could be enough to kill off the fish.
Good points made here. The fact the tank had elevated ammonia afterwards could suggest the bio filter was compromised, perhaps shocked during the water change, particularly if it was a large wc and particularly if the conditioner dosage was off. Could habe at least been a contributing factor to what happened here.
 

RD.

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This most definitely would not have been caused from Safe, or the Fritz products. Not at the dosage amounts that you posted.
I have been using Safe for many years, at much higher doses, with numerous products similar to Fritz line of bacteria, at the same time, and at levels FAR exceeding what you used. Not even small fry have ever had any issues. While both can consume 02, not at those levels. Safe is simply a more economical dry product, vs Prime. Both are reducing agents, so in extreme overdose cases, they can certainly deplete 02 levels, once all the chlorine or chloramine has been reduced. But again, not at the levels you posted.

I would consider the hose as being #1 potential. If it’s not designed for potable drinking water, then it’s no bueno in my books. Many of todays Made in China hoses come lined with various anti fungal, mold inhibiting chemicals that are not fish friendly. Sorry for the loss.
 
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RD.

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BTW…….. perhaps I missed it, but does your tap water get treated with chlorine, or chloramine, and at what ppm residual does it leave your tap. You may have in fact under-dosed the Safe, for such a large water change? Keep in mind Seachem is only ball parking their recommended dosage rate, based on some massive overgeneralization of disinfectant rates around the world.
 

RD.

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Approx 3 yrs ago Seachem decided that due to customers not being able to add 1+1 and divide by 2, they would simplify their dosage instructions on Seachem Safe. This topic was brought up by pops pops , to which I added my 2 cents. https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/seachem-safe.651005/

If you read that thread, and the links that I posted in that discussion, you'll understand why I didn't agree of the change, and still don't today. Yesterday while attempting to help someone with a chlorine/chloramine situation I see that Seachem has done the same with Prime. I'm at a loss here, has the general public become so lazy and useless that they can't do a bit of research and calculation on their own? Does nobody see an issue here, but me? Seachem is telling you what you should treat your water with, without knowing anything about your local tap water. To me that seems ludicrous.

Seachem Prime instructions circa 2004

DIRECTIONS: Use 1 capful (5 mL) for each 200 L (50 gallons*) of new water. For smaller doses, please note each cap thread is approx. 1 mL). This dose removes approximately 0.6 mg/L ammonia, 3 mg/L chloramine, or 4 mg/L chlorine. May be added to aquarium directly, but better if added to new water first. If adding directly to aquarium, base dose on aquarium volume. Sulfur odor is normal. For exceptionally high chloramine concentrations, a double dose may be used safely. To detoxify nitrite in an emergency, up to 5 times normal dose may be used. If temperature is > 30 °C (86 °F) and chlorine or ammonia levels are low, use a half dose.

Seachem Safe instructions circa 2004

Chlorine: use 5 g (1 tsp.*) to each 1625 L (450 gallons*) of tap water (removes 4 ppm).
Chloramine: use 5 g (1 tsp.*) to each 1250 L (300 gallons*) of tap water (removes 4 ppm).
Ammonia: use 5 g (1 tsp.*) to each 400 L (100 gallons*) of tap water (removes 4 ppm). Do not overdose!



Seemed simple enough to me, and I'm not big on math. First one has to find out if they have chlorine or chloramine as a disinfectant, then find out what the max residual is (posted on annual water reports, many are posted online) and then treat accordingly. Better yet, buy a chlorine test kit and test at your taps, and then treat accordingly. If you have chloramine, buy a Seachem ammonia alert sensor to check for free ammonia (NH3) residual. https://www.seachem.com/ammonia-alert.php
This becomes critical for those that have chloramine treated tap water, and have high pH values out of their tap, as the higher the pH, the more toxic free ammonia becomes.


But I guess that was too difficult for the masses to figure out, so now the most important thing in this hobby (water quality) is left to a by guess or by golly set of instructions.


Seachem Prime instructions circa 2019

https://seachem.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115000125454-Info-Prime-dosing-instructions

Use 1 capful (5 mL) for each 200 L (50 US gallons) of new water. For smaller volumes, please note each cap thread is approximately 1 mL. May be added to aquarium directly, but better if added to new water first. If adding directly to aquarium, base dose on aquarium volume. Sulfur odor is normal. For exceptionally high chloramine concentrations, a double dose may be used safely. To detoxify nitrite in an emergency, up to 5 times normal dose may be used. If temperature is > 30 °C (86 °F) and chlorine or ammonia levels are low, use a half dose.


So I guess Seachem doesn't want to answer any more mathematical equations, or explain how to add 1+1 and divide by 2, so instead of the old ...…. This dose removes approximately 0.6 mg/L ammonia, 3 mg/L chloramine, or 4 mg/L chlorine, it's now become a one size fits all scenario, and if that doesn't work out then by all means double down. If this wasn't such a sad reflection on where todays world is at, I'd laugh. Consumers can figure out how to download & use a Seachem app, but to borrow a line from my dear old dad, they can't find their own ass from a hole in the ground.

I'm going to guess that the vast majority that read this thread, have no idea what their current disinfectant being used is (chlorine or chloramine) or what the ppm residual is at their taps. For those that do, well done!
 

Fishyboy🐟🐟🐟

Plecostomus
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BTW…….. perhaps I missed it, but does your tap water get treated with chlorine, or chloramine, and at what ppm residual does it leave your tap. You may have in fact under-dosed the Safe, for such a large water change? Keep in mind Seachem is only ball parking their recommended dosage rate, based on some massive overgeneralization of disinfectant rates around the world.
If it was underdechlorinatiom (lol I butchered it) I think the gar would still be alive and the Oscar dead as gar can survive in chlorine water
 

RD.

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Maybe? But chloramine at higher levels (I’ve seen areas of US at a high range of 4ppm) can cause a sudden spike of ammonia, once the chlorine/ammonia bond is broken. Chlorine gets reduced to harmless level, but free ammonia does not. (If under-dosed) Can a gar survive large ammonia spike? My experience with gar is very limited, and I have no idea.

If none of the above, then maybe back to hose…….
 

FINWIN

Alligator Gar
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Jon M Jon M ,

First, that's terrible what happened to your fish, sorry.

Something you said caught my attention. On the potential of contamination. The guy who used your hose bib after the paint job, could he have been wearing gloves with solvent/thinner that could have gotten on the threads? Or even some substance on his own hose bib? Just a thought. Stranger things have happened.
 

EricTheRed

Plecostomus
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From the evidence, I believe a toxic contaminant got into the hose you used to refill your tank and it killed most of your fish. I don’t think your chemicals had anything to do with this tragedy. I strongly recommend dedicating a quality hose to your fish tanks in the future and do not ever let anyone else “borrow it” for any purpose in the future. For this same reason I have dedicated hoses, siphons and 🪣 buckets exclusively for my fish tanks. Sorry for your loss, but I think this practice will ensure this never happens to you again. Also, that is one hardy Oscar you have…
 
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thebiggerthebetter

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Got your email. Sorry to hear this Jon. I too don't believe in your LFS friend's explanation but one thing I agree with - our hobby is risky, our pets are on life support 24/7/364. Lots of things can and do go wrong. A lot of problems one can prevent with much thinking about the safest practices. The list can be long of what can go wrong and how to make sure they don't.

One thing that's suspiciously missing is the pH measure and its stability. Peers report a pH crash. IDK if such things wipe out tanks, I've never had that.

Other than the sudden change in pH that could shock the fish irreversibly, I don't see a likely smoking gun. The hose, the sabotage, the cats, the fumes, the authorities working on the tap water, the chemicals, the bad batch, unwashed hands, all seem highly unlikely, particularly in view of other tanks unaffected.

Weird things do happen. Have you or your gf sprayed any aerosol cleaner chemicals in the tank's vicinity, while cleaning house, of the tank, or around the tank? But that wouldn't explain the coincidence with the WC.

BTW, one common type of hand sanitizer turns out deadly to fish, not the isopropanol based one, but the other! ... I can find the thread on this.

You have to figure out why only one tank was wiped and was cloudy and not others. Something must be or must have been different about this tank or about how you changed your water in it. Was it the first to receive the hosed water? Than this might strengthen the hose hypothesis a bit.
 
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