Firemouth Cichlids dying

[RD.]

Too much old information based on assumptions and speculation, and sometimes, outdated information. See links below.

Yellow labs with severum ?? | MonsterFishKeepers.com


more of the same .....

Whats the big deal about soft water cichlids in hard water. Rant

I have seen this many times, ”I put my severum, or oscar in my high pH, hard water when young, and it’s been fine, 3 months, or even a year later.” But often, maybe 3 years or less later, a post comes up. “My oscar, or severum has lots of HLLE scars, and I haven’t done anything different.”...

www.monsterfishkeepers.com

Same old rant, but simply not always as factual as being presented.

I agree with a lot of what you posted, Duane, but at the same time I agree with neutrino as well. It's not always as simplistic as it seems on the surface. For example.....




Domestic discus do just fine in hard water with higher pH values - and no need for large daily water changes. A local discus breeder here with 2-3 thousand gallons worth of discus tanks kept and raised all of his discus in our hard water with pH 8.0. As already explained, the only thing soft water does is allow a higher success rate of eggs hatching. That's it. And his water change schedule was once a week. As he liked to say, warm water + beef = beef soup. In his latter years he fed pellets (NLS) with a treat of blood worms once or twice a week, and changed water once a week. Below are some of his Stendker grow outs raised during this period.

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Great point. I posted the following 16 yrs ago on another forum regarding tweaking water to fit Malawi cichlids ...….

I get the feeling some people have been led to believe that one has to have their PH range above 8.0, which simply isn't true. PH values as low as 7.5 have been recorded in Lake Malawi, and the water is not near as hard as most people believe, it's actually on the soft side. (4-6 dGH) Many people assume that high PH values = hard water, but in the case of Lake Malawi this isn't true.



Also, most tap water will have seasonal fluctuations, just like Lake Malawi, so I think it would be near impossible to keep all water parameters constant 365 days of the year. The trick is keeping the fluctuations from being drastic from one day to the next. I'm not sure if all of the 'new' aquarium owners realize just how drastic a change in PH from 7.6 - 8.6 is? I would prefer to see people keeping their Cichlids at a constant 7.4, than have the PH jumping back & forth between 7.4 & 8.4 every time they do a water change, and add a fist full of chemicals/buffers.



Our local tap water is usually in the PH range of 8.0, with seasonal drops as low as 7.8, and as high as 8.2. The water hardness levels are usually in the 150-180 mg/l range during spring & summer & approx
200-250 mg/l during the winter months. This is approx. twice as hard as the water in Lake Malawi, yet the fish here do very well with no additional treatments or buffers.



This is why I always suggest getting in contact with ones local water treatment plant, so that they know exactly what they are dealing with "throughout" the year. As long as the tap water changes/conditions are gradual throughout the year, the fish will do fine. But ....... IMO if someone isn't very careful with how they test their water, and how they add the buffers, it can cause MUCH more harm than just leaving the water as-is. (even if not exactly the same as the Rift lakes)



If I was to 'attempt' to tweak my local tap water to get the exact same parameters as Lake Malawi I would need to do the following:



1. Raise the PH slightly

2. Lower the overall alkalinity

3. Lower the hardness

4. Lower the conductivity

5. Lower the Calcium

5. Lower the Carbonates

6. Raise the Chloride

7. Lower the Magnesium

8. Raise the Potassium

10. Raise the Sodium

11. Lower the Sulfate



Even if I was a chemist (which I'm not) and had the proper test kits to monitor all of these conditions on a weekly basis, and had the chemicals on hand to adjust all of these parameters, can you see what a nightmare it would be to keep everything on a constant even keel 365 days of the year?

 

[RD.]

Btw OutbackJack …… your red spotted Severum are most likely a product of Taiwan, or Thailand, or Singapore, not a river in South America. IMHO the whole biotope water parameters spiel is borderline ridiculous, when referencing some of the domestic strains of fish kept in this hobby.

 

[Jintoh50]

Minimal ammonia? Shouldn't really have any ammonia.

 

[bkfamus]

I've kept domestic strain T. meeki (& T. pasionis, T. aureus, T. maculipinnis and recently T. helleri) in neutral ph (7-7.2pH) water the last 4 years w/ plenty of breeding (1000s of fry) and no health issues to the adults... Not sure what it means since I'm just a hobbyist w/ only a fraction of the experience of many of the other members responding here... My fish room is evenly split between CA and SA all in the same neutral pH water and the only time I saw something resembling HITH was recently w/ 1 WC Geo sveni (may have been an injury but inconclusive and moved it to a buddy).. I have 5 other adult WC sveni and some WC Biotodoma cupido in the same tank for the last 3 years or so.. No breeding yet, but no discernible health issues..

I've also kept every Apisto and tetra I can find the last 10+ years and have had issues w/ WC blackwater apistos, but none I recall w/ tank raised or non blackwater Apistos or any tetras...

I did have bad luck w/ Biotodoma wavrini which perished one by one within months of purchase.. But for the most part, I try to avoid the low pH, high acidity WC types.. But I have had success w/ low pH, high acidity captive bred fish like Heros sp. inirida, Geophagus miribillis, etc. for ~3 years now..

One other thing of note, is I've noticed some fish not endemic to certain regions thrive when introduced to dissimilar environments. For instance T. meeki may be endemic to Mexico / Guatemala, but according to the Cichlid Room Companion, they can be found also in South America and Florida as well as black water :


"Type locality: Near Progreso, Yucatan, Mexico.

Distribution: Thorichthys meeki has a wide distribution, it can be found in the Mexican Gulf slope from the Tonala River in the north eastern part of the Tehuantepec Isthmus east to tributaries of the lower Grijalva river in Tabasco, and north to the upper part of the Yucatán peninsula (North Latitudes 17°30’ to 22°30’, West longitudes 88° to 93°). This includes Tonala, Pichucalco, Oxolatlan and Teapa rivers, the lagoons around the lower Grijalva and Usumacinta basin, the Tulija and Usumacinta and its affluents including Chancala, La Pasion, Lacantun, San Pedro Rivers. Also in Chompán, Candelaria, and the last northern Yucatán major river, the Champotón. Beyond this point north it will be found in most sinkholes (Cenotes) over the western and northern part of the peninsula. This fish will just inhabits lowlands up to about 150 mosl. In upper areas of the mentioned rivers with clear water T. meeki is scarce and only found in some backwater areas.

T. meeki is also found in the eastern part of the Yucatan Peninsula from sinkholes in the Sian Ka'an Biosphere Reserve south of Tulum to the northern part of Belize south to the Belize River. In this area T. meeki is found in clear water rivers and lakes, in opposition to habitats west of the Yucatan Peninsula.

There are records (Lee et al, 1980) that T. meeki has been established in a small area in the southern part of the Peninsula of Florida, most likely deriving from escapees from aquarium fish farms."

Again, I'm no scientist or expert, just a hobbyist who loves some T. meeki.. and G. pyrocephalus.. and V. melanura.. and H. sp. inirida.. and.. and.. and... My initial thought w/out knowing more is the OP may be getting an overbred strain.. No knock on your LFS, but T. meeki is farmed all over and I 'm sure some sources are better or worse than others.. Maybe order some from Kevin@TUIC and see if you have better luck...

 

[Stanzzzz7]

I've kept domestic strain T. meeki (& T. pasionis, T. aureus, T. maculipinnis and recently T. helleri) in neutral ph (7-7.2pH) water the last 4 years w/ plenty of breeding (1000s of fry) and no health issues to the adults... Not sure what it means since I'm just a hobbyist w/ only a fraction of the experience of many of the other members responding here... My fish room is evenly split between CA and SA all in the same neutral pH water and the only time I saw something resembling HITH was recently w/ 1 WC Geo sveni (may have been an injury but inconclusive and moved it to a buddy).. I have 5 other adult WC sveni and some WC Biotodoma cupido in the same tank for the last 3 years or so.. No breeding yet, but no discernible health issues..

I've also kept every Apisto and tetra I can find the last 10+ years and have had issues w/ WC blackwater apistos, but none I recall w/ tank raised or non blackwater Apistos or any tetras...

I did have bad luck w/ Biotodoma wavrini which perished one by one within months of purchase.. But for the most part, I try to avoid the low pH, high acidity WC types.. But I have had success w/ low pH, high acidity captive bred fish like Heros sp. inirida, Geophagus miribillis, etc. for ~3 years now..

One other thing of note, is I've noticed some fish not endemic to certain regions thrive when introduced to dissimilar environments. For instance T. meeki may be endemic to Mexico / Guatemala, but according to the Cichlid Room Companion, they can be found also in South America and Florida as well as black water :


"Type locality: Near Progreso, Yucatan, Mexico.

Distribution: Thorichthys meeki has a wide distribution, it can be found in the Mexican Gulf slope from the Tonala River in the north eastern part of the Tehuantepec Isthmus east to tributaries of the lower Grijalva river in Tabasco, and north to the upper part of the Yucatán peninsula (North Latitudes 17°30’ to 22°30’, West longitudes 88° to 93°). This includes Tonala, Pichucalco, Oxolatlan and Teapa rivers, the lagoons around the lower Grijalva and Usumacinta basin, the Tulija and Usumacinta and its affluents including Chancala, La Pasion, Lacantun, San Pedro Rivers. Also in Chompán, Candelaria, and the last northern Yucatán major river, the Champotón. Beyond this point north it will be found in most sinkholes (Cenotes) over the western and northern part of the peninsula. This fish will just inhabits lowlands up to about 150 mosl. In upper areas of the mentioned rivers with clear water T. meeki is scarce and only found in some backwater areas.

T. meeki is also found in the eastern part of the Yucatan Peninsula from sinkholes in the Sian Ka'an Biosphere Reserve south of Tulum to the northern part of Belize south to the Belize River. In this area T. meeki is found in clear water rivers and lakes, in opposition to habitats west of the Yucatan Peninsula.

There are records (Lee et al, 1980) that T. meeki has been established in a small area in the southern part of the Peninsula of Florida, most likely deriving from escapees from aquarium fish farms."

Again, I'm no scientist or expert, just a hobbyist who loves some T. meeki.. and G. pyrocephalus.. and V. melanura.. and H. sp. inirida.. and.. and.. and... My initial thought w/out knowing more is the OP may be getting an overbred strain.. No knock on your LFS, but T. meeki is farmed all over and I 'm sure some sources are better or worse than others.. Maybe order some from Kevin@TUIC and see if you have better luck...

I would imagine you have hit the nail right on the head.

 

[OutbackJack]

Btw OutbackJack …… your red spotted Severum are most likely a product of Taiwan, or Thailand, or Singapore, not a river in South America. IMHO the whole biotope water parameters spiel is borderline ridiculous, when referencing some of the domestic strains of fish kept in this hobby.

I kinda figured as much; fish farms and all.

 

[OutbackJack]

I've kept domestic strain T. meeki (& T. pasionis, T. aureus, T. maculipinnis and recently T. helleri) in neutral ph (7-7.2pH) water the last 4 years w/ plenty of breeding (1000s of fry) and no health issues to the adults... Not sure what it means since I'm just a hobbyist w/ only a fraction of the experience of many of the other members responding here... My fish room is evenly split between CA and SA all in the same neutral pH water and the only time I saw something resembling HITH was recently w/ 1 WC Geo sveni (may have been an injury but inconclusive and moved it to a buddy).. I have 5 other adult WC sveni and some WC Biotodoma cupido in the same tank for the last 3 years or so.. No breeding yet, but no discernible health issues..

I've also kept every Apisto and tetra I can find the last 10+ years and have had issues w/ WC blackwater apistos, but none I recall w/ tank raised or non blackwater Apistos or any tetras...

I did have bad luck w/ Biotodoma wavrini which perished one by one within months of purchase.. But for the most part, I try to avoid the low pH, high acidity WC types.. But I have had success w/ low pH, high acidity captive bred fish like Heros sp. inirida, Geophagus miribillis, etc. for ~3 years now..

One other thing of note, is I've noticed some fish not endemic to certain regions thrive when introduced to dissimilar environments. For instance T. meeki may be endemic to Mexico / Guatemala, but according to the Cichlid Room Companion, they can be found also in South America and Florida as well as black water :


"Type locality: Near Progreso, Yucatan, Mexico.

Distribution: Thorichthys meeki has a wide distribution, it can be found in the Mexican Gulf slope from the Tonala River in the north eastern part of the Tehuantepec Isthmus east to tributaries of the lower Grijalva river in Tabasco, and north to the upper part of the Yucatán peninsula (North Latitudes 17°30’ to 22°30’, West longitudes 88° to 93°). This includes Tonala, Pichucalco, Oxolatlan and Teapa rivers, the lagoons around the lower Grijalva and Usumacinta basin, the Tulija and Usumacinta and its affluents including Chancala, La Pasion, Lacantun, San Pedro Rivers. Also in Chompán, Candelaria, and the last northern Yucatán major river, the Champotón. Beyond this point north it will be found in most sinkholes (Cenotes) over the western and northern part of the peninsula. This fish will just inhabits lowlands up to about 150 mosl. In upper areas of the mentioned rivers with clear water T. meeki is scarce and only found in some backwater areas.

T. meeki is also found in the eastern part of the Yucatan Peninsula from sinkholes in the Sian Ka'an Biosphere Reserve south of Tulum to the northern part of Belize south to the Belize River. In this area T. meeki is found in clear water rivers and lakes, in opposition to habitats west of the Yucatan Peninsula.

There are records (Lee et al, 1980) that T. meeki has been established in a small area in the southern part of the Peninsula of Florida, most likely deriving from escapees from aquarium fish farms."

Again, I'm no scientist or expert, just a hobbyist who loves some T. meeki.. and G. pyrocephalus.. and V. melanura.. and H. sp. inirida.. and.. and.. and... My initial thought w/out knowing more is the OP may be getting an overbred strain.. No knock on your LFS, but T. meeki is farmed all over and I 'm sure some sources are better or worse than others.. Maybe order some from Kevin@TUIC and see if you have better luck...

Thank you for the information, truly. I'm always open to new info.

 

[OutbackJack]

Minimal ammonia? Shouldn't really have any ammonia.

When I say minimum ammonia, I mean MINIMUM. Like barely registering on the test. It's not even enough to inconvenience my fish.