paopanlilio;2925981; said:
yes, true but there are no goldfish in the wild and they also have a diet of other stuff such as shrimp.
Alligator Gar Food
- Thread starter Gar keeper
- Start date
- Status
yes, true but there are no goldfish in the wild and they also have a diet of other stuff such as shrimp.
uting;2925611; said:
Polypterus;2925423; said:
I apologize for my ignorance... but I really don't know why they would be so bad. Every employee at the LFS recommends goldfish and this is one of the most best fish places in town. Not to mention that 95% of the pics of gars I see on here are pics of their gar eating goldfish.
I found some info here:
Vitamin B1: (Thiamine) is stored in the body to a great extent. Evidence of a deficiency appears within a few weeks. The function of vitamin B1 in the body of fish is to form the active part, or 'coenzyme' of certain enzymes involved in the metabolism of carbohydrates, particularly of pyruvic acid when a vitamin B1 deficiency interferes with carbohydrate metabolism, a number of characteristic symptoms appear A lack of vitamin B1 causes loss of appetite, a failure to grow, general weakness, nervous malfunctions and muscular action stoppage in the caudal fin. If they do not get vitamin B1, they will finally die. The symptoms disappear very slowly when given vitamin B1 in their food.
So now my question is can't I just give him some vitimin B to compensate for the goldfish?
The data on thiaminase content comes from various sources, mostly from the National research council (1982), Deutsch & Hasler (1943), Greig & Gnaedinger (1971) and Hilker & Peter (1966); see also the literature list at the end of the article. The lists are far from complete, but most of the usually marketed and so far examined species are enlisted. Although primarily based on coldwater food fish and invertebrates, thiaminase content information exists for several tropical species widely marketed, and these been included accordingly.
Species that contain thiaminase
Freshwater fish
Family Cyprinidae (Minnows or carps):
Common bream (Abramis brama)
Central stoneroller (Campostoma anomalum)
Goldfish (Carassius auratus)
Common carp (Cyprinus carpio)
Emerald shiner (Notropis atherinoides)
Spottail shiner (Notropis hudsonius)
Rosy red, Fathead minnow (Pimephales promelas)
Olive barb (Puntius sarana)
What is thiaminase?
Thiaminase is an enzyme, a chemical compound that destroys or inactivates thiamine. Thiamine is an important vitamin also known as Vitamin B1. There is not just one type of thiaminase, but several different ones, some of which can be produced by bacteria, fungi, plants and potentially animals.
hiamine Deficiency Syndrome and its symptoms
Vitamin B1 (also known as thiamine, thiamine hydrochloride, and in older text books, as aneurine hydrochloride) is an essential nutrient for most animals. It is a colorless and water soluble chemical that helps to convert carbohydrates into glucose. It is particularly important for the correct functioning of the nervous system. A lack of Vitamin B1 is called a Thiamine Deficiency Syndrome.
Symptoms of this syndrome are well known from several commercially important fish groups and can be confirmed using appropriate biochemical tests. Flatfish fed exclusively with thiaminase-rich clams suffer and die from paralysis and related physical shocks. Eels show a trunk-winding syndrome and hemorrhages along the base of the fins (similar symptoms have been reported from moray husbandry, too). Salmonids show nervous disorders, poor appetite, poor growth and jumpiness (again, similar things have observed among a variety of ornamental fish species). Skin congestion and haemorrhage have been reported from carp and other cyprinids. In general then, excessive amounts of thiaminase are connected with symptoms of sickness that include poor growth, loss of appetite, abdominal swelling and hemorrhage, loss of equilibrum, convulsions, muscle atrophy and a weak immune system.
While it has not yet been scientifically proven that pet fish suffering from the above mentioned symptoms have Thiamine Deficiency Syndrome, the parallels with their food fish relatives are striking. The problems of thiaminase are now well known in the professional fields of animal nutrition (e.g. fish farms), but so far this information has not been widely taken up by aquarists and pet owners. But it is clear that those hobbyists keeping large predatory fish and other carnivorous animals need to be familiar with the problem of Thiamine Deficiency Syndrome, and use that information to make sensible choices when selecting food for their livestock.
References
Anglesea, J.D. & Jackson, A.J. (1985): Thiaminase activity in fish silage and moist fish feed. Anim. Feed Sci. Tech. 13: 39-46.
Deutsch, H.F. & Hasler, A.D. (1943): Distribution of a Vitamin B1 destructive enzyme in fish.- Proc. Soc. Exp. Biol. Med. 53: 63-65.
Food and agriculture organization of the United Nations (1980): ADCP/REP/80/11 - Fish Feed Technology. HYPERLINK "http:]www.fao.org/docrep/X5738E/x5738e00.HTM#Contents" http:]www.fao.org/docrep/X5738E/x5738e00.HTM#Contents
Greig, R.A. & Gnaedinger, R.H. (1971): Occurrence of thiaminase in some common aquatic animals of the United States and Canada. Special Scientific Report—Fish. U.S. Dept. Commer. Natl. Mar. Fish. Serv. 631: 1-7.
Hilker, D.M. & Peter, O.F. (1966): Anti-thiamine activity in Hawaii fish.- J. Nutr. 89(4):419-421.
National Research Council (1981): Nutrient Requirements of Cold-water Fishes. Washington, D.C.: National Academy Press.
National Research Council (1982): Nutrient Requirements of Mink and Foxes, Washington, D.C.: National Academy Press.
National Research Council (1983): Nutrient Requirements of Warm-water Fishes and Shellfishes. Washington, D.C.: National Academy Press.
National Research Council (1993): Nutrient Requirements of Fish. National Academy Press. Washington DC, USA.
Royes, J.-A.B. & Chapman F.A.: Preparing your own fish feeds.- University of Florida, 9 p. HYPERLINK "http:]edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/FA/FA09700.pdf" http:]edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/FA/FA09700.pdf
Scardi, V. & Magri, E. (1957): Thiaminase activity in Mytilus galloprovincialis.- Boll Soc Ital Biol Sper. 33(7):1087-1089 (in Italian).
Wistbacka, S.; Heinonen, A.; Bylund, G. (2002): Thiaminase activity of gastrointestinal contents of salmon and herring from the Baltic Sea.- Journal of Fish Biology 60(4), 1031-1042.
Yudkin, W.H. (1949): Thiaminase, the Chastek-paralysis factor.- Physiol. Rev. 29: 389-402.
Neale Monks
Species that contain thiaminase
Freshwater fish
Family Cyprinidae (Minnows or carps):
Common bream (Abramis brama)
Central stoneroller (Campostoma anomalum)
Goldfish (Carassius auratus)
Common carp (Cyprinus carpio)
Emerald shiner (Notropis atherinoides)
Spottail shiner (Notropis hudsonius)
Rosy red, Fathead minnow (Pimephales promelas)
Olive barb (Puntius sarana)
What is thiaminase?
Thiaminase is an enzyme, a chemical compound that destroys or inactivates thiamine. Thiamine is an important vitamin also known as Vitamin B1. There is not just one type of thiaminase, but several different ones, some of which can be produced by bacteria, fungi, plants and potentially animals.
hiamine Deficiency Syndrome and its symptoms
Vitamin B1 (also known as thiamine, thiamine hydrochloride, and in older text books, as aneurine hydrochloride) is an essential nutrient for most animals. It is a colorless and water soluble chemical that helps to convert carbohydrates into glucose. It is particularly important for the correct functioning of the nervous system. A lack of Vitamin B1 is called a Thiamine Deficiency Syndrome.
Symptoms of this syndrome are well known from several commercially important fish groups and can be confirmed using appropriate biochemical tests. Flatfish fed exclusively with thiaminase-rich clams suffer and die from paralysis and related physical shocks. Eels show a trunk-winding syndrome and hemorrhages along the base of the fins (similar symptoms have been reported from moray husbandry, too). Salmonids show nervous disorders, poor appetite, poor growth and jumpiness (again, similar things have observed among a variety of ornamental fish species). Skin congestion and haemorrhage have been reported from carp and other cyprinids. In general then, excessive amounts of thiaminase are connected with symptoms of sickness that include poor growth, loss of appetite, abdominal swelling and hemorrhage, loss of equilibrum, convulsions, muscle atrophy and a weak immune system.
While it has not yet been scientifically proven that pet fish suffering from the above mentioned symptoms have Thiamine Deficiency Syndrome, the parallels with their food fish relatives are striking. The problems of thiaminase are now well known in the professional fields of animal nutrition (e.g. fish farms), but so far this information has not been widely taken up by aquarists and pet owners. But it is clear that those hobbyists keeping large predatory fish and other carnivorous animals need to be familiar with the problem of Thiamine Deficiency Syndrome, and use that information to make sensible choices when selecting food for their livestock.
References
Anglesea, J.D. & Jackson, A.J. (1985): Thiaminase activity in fish silage and moist fish feed. Anim. Feed Sci. Tech. 13: 39-46.
Deutsch, H.F. & Hasler, A.D. (1943): Distribution of a Vitamin B1 destructive enzyme in fish.- Proc. Soc. Exp. Biol. Med. 53: 63-65.
Food and agriculture organization of the United Nations (1980): ADCP/REP/80/11 - Fish Feed Technology. HYPERLINK "http:]www.fao.org/docrep/X5738E/x5738e00.HTM#Contents" http:]www.fao.org/docrep/X5738E/x5738e00.HTM#Contents
Greig, R.A. & Gnaedinger, R.H. (1971): Occurrence of thiaminase in some common aquatic animals of the United States and Canada. Special Scientific Report—Fish. U.S. Dept. Commer. Natl. Mar. Fish. Serv. 631: 1-7.
Hilker, D.M. & Peter, O.F. (1966): Anti-thiamine activity in Hawaii fish.- J. Nutr. 89(4):419-421.
National Research Council (1981): Nutrient Requirements of Cold-water Fishes. Washington, D.C.: National Academy Press.
National Research Council (1982): Nutrient Requirements of Mink and Foxes, Washington, D.C.: National Academy Press.
National Research Council (1983): Nutrient Requirements of Warm-water Fishes and Shellfishes. Washington, D.C.: National Academy Press.
National Research Council (1993): Nutrient Requirements of Fish. National Academy Press. Washington DC, USA.
Royes, J.-A.B. & Chapman F.A.: Preparing your own fish feeds.- University of Florida, 9 p. HYPERLINK "http:]edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/FA/FA09700.pdf" http:]edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/FA/FA09700.pdf
Scardi, V. & Magri, E. (1957): Thiaminase activity in Mytilus galloprovincialis.- Boll Soc Ital Biol Sper. 33(7):1087-1089 (in Italian).
Wistbacka, S.; Heinonen, A.; Bylund, G. (2002): Thiaminase activity of gastrointestinal contents of salmon and herring from the Baltic Sea.- Journal of Fish Biology 60(4), 1031-1042.
Yudkin, W.H. (1949): Thiaminase, the Chastek-paralysis factor.- Physiol. Rev. 29: 389-402.
Neale Monks
And further:
There is really no reason to feeders except as the ocassional treat.
Various live fish and fry can be used for foods.Caution here unless you raise them
any commercialy bought feeders usually rosie reds/tuffies (the albino form of fat head minnows),
guppies,bait minnows etc.need to be quarantined before feeding them to your fish for several reasons.
reason 1 They are kept in horrible conditions
reason 2 They are often diseased
reason 3 They often are carriers of parasites
During quarantine dispose of the obviously sick or diseased.The remaining ones feed quality
foods a healthy feeder is of course better for your fish.
Goldfish just generaly are poor feeders and should be avoided. they are oily not very nutritious and constant feed of them causes faty deposits on the liver leading to premature deaths.They also contain very high levels of Thiaminase a destroying hormone.While many fish used as feeders contain this goldfish seem to have an abundance of it.Another issue is a spine at the front of the dorsal fin which can lead to problems if the goldfish is swollowed the wrong way (tailfirst).Yet another reason not to use goldfish,goldfish farms utilize copper meds in suspension form to combat diseases in the feeders associated with overcrowding.These copper meds are retained by the feeders for long periods after they leave the farms.Most lfs invariably retain all or part of the feeders shipping water when the feeders are loaded into their bins/tanks. And copper does not dissapate from a closed system.
There is really no reason to feeders except as the ocassional treat.
Various live fish and fry can be used for foods.Caution here unless you raise them
any commercialy bought feeders usually rosie reds/tuffies (the albino form of fat head minnows),
guppies,bait minnows etc.need to be quarantined before feeding them to your fish for several reasons.
reason 1 They are kept in horrible conditions
reason 2 They are often diseased
reason 3 They often are carriers of parasites
During quarantine dispose of the obviously sick or diseased.The remaining ones feed quality
foods a healthy feeder is of course better for your fish.
Goldfish just generaly are poor feeders and should be avoided. they are oily not very nutritious and constant feed of them causes faty deposits on the liver leading to premature deaths.They also contain very high levels of Thiaminase a destroying hormone.While many fish used as feeders contain this goldfish seem to have an abundance of it.Another issue is a spine at the front of the dorsal fin which can lead to problems if the goldfish is swollowed the wrong way (tailfirst).Yet another reason not to use goldfish,goldfish farms utilize copper meds in suspension form to combat diseases in the feeders associated with overcrowding.These copper meds are retained by the feeders for long periods after they leave the farms.Most lfs invariably retain all or part of the feeders shipping water when the feeders are loaded into their bins/tanks. And copper does not dissapate from a closed system.
Excellent, excellent read 
Now my only question is, can't I just give him some vitamin B to make up for what the goldfish take away? It would be very very easy to just put some on a piece of shrimp and feed him that.
Now my only question is, can't I just give him some vitamin B to make up for what the goldfish take away? It would be very very easy to just put some on a piece of shrimp and feed him that.
So now my question is can't I just give him some vitimin B to compensate for the goldfish?
It is a bit more than that....It is also how these feeders are produced which is a problem.. They are in all reality a toxic mess of medications and heavy metals. They are also poorly fed and have little additional value beyond their chemical soaked flesh.
but yes it is possible to supplement the diet to counter the negative B vitamin issues. This is what we do all the time when feeding frozen fish and seafood to captive gars. There are several supplements available for feeding fish eating animals. Some of the best being ones marketed by Mazuri for large picivores.
( and Anne beat me to a lot of it.... )
It is a bit more than that....It is also how these feeders are produced which is a problem.. They are in all reality a toxic mess of medications and heavy metals. They are also poorly fed and have little additional value beyond their chemical soaked flesh.
but yes it is possible to supplement the diet to counter the negative B vitamin issues. This is what we do all the time when feeding frozen fish and seafood to captive gars. There are several supplements available for feeding fish eating animals. Some of the best being ones marketed by Mazuri for large picivores.
( and Anne beat me to a lot of it....
)
Richard do you inject the vitamin supplements or just soak the foods in it? Just wondering i usually inject the food-Anne
beblondie;2926798; said:
i generally soaked the food when i did vitamins, but i don't do it as much anymore...feeding a variety including a couple complete pellets will do just fine for captive gars.
as richard said, a simple vitamin supplement won't make up for the poor quality of goldfish. i don't see what feeding them as a treat is such a quality of life change for a fish keeper. other foods are cheaper, more highly nutritious, and easier to maintain...
listening to what everyone does in an LFS generally doesn't work either...especially with gars. unless you know someone working at the LFS who has kept gars for years and has done their share of research on appropriate husbandry of the fish, i wouldn't pay any attention to what they say in most cases.
i trust a lot of people at a couple LFS i go to, but when it comes to gars, i go by what i've learned from other experienced keepers, the available literature, and my own experience.
nice job anne in posting those references/info; that should at least answer those questions.--
--solomon
beblondie;2926798; said:
Both.. It really depends on the food type and how it is offered. Injecting is more direct and less likely to dissipate quickly compared to soaking. Soaking is also less precise in dosage.
- Status
