Amphilophus c. Grow Out Temperature

[RD.]

Wow that’s an incredible fish. I would be interested in learning more about your feeding routine. I have been an overfeeder in the past and try hard to avoid it. You mention in that thread about skipping days, but did you do that when they were younger as well? I’ll post a picture of their current size. If not, at about what age/size do you slow down on their feeding. I feed mostly NLS to my other fish with a mix of Xtreme spriluna and krill flake as well as a treat of Hikari Vibra Bites and Fluval Bug bite flakes.

Thanks, yeah he's a brute. At the rate that he's going I won't be surprised if he makes it to 15. Young fish need to consume calories daily, when small fry, 3-4 times a day. Once they begin to gain some size, start dialing back on frequency, but continue to increase quantity. I pretty much fed daily until he was semi mature, then began slowing down and let him ease into maturity. A lot also depends on the individual fishes activity level in the tank, vs how many calories they need for proper growth & overall health. The fishes shape/size will be your overall guide. Some grow outs require a bit more fine tuning than others. Your food choices look good.

I agree, I am a fervent believer in large frequent water changes. I can’t say that I’ve done daily but minimum once a week, close to 75%, often twice weekly with the second being closer to 50%. These growouts I may try the daily method.

I have bred & raised my fair share of various cichlid fry over the years, nothing, and I mean nothing, beats large daily water changes.

 

[platy21]

Thanks, yeah he's a brute. At the rate that he's going I won't be surprised if he makes it to 15. Young fish need to consume calories daily, when small fry, 3-4 times a day. Once they begin to gain some size, start dialing back on frequency, but continue to increase quantity. I pretty much fed daily until he was semi mature, then began slowing down and let him ease into maturity. A lot also depends on the individual fishes activity level in the tank, vs how many calories they need for proper growth & overall health. The fishes shape/size will be your overall guide. Some grow outs require a bit more fine tuning than others. Your food choices look good.

At what size would you start to scale back on frequency for Midas and when did you consider him semi-mature? Would you say that scales across to other cichlids as well? Hard to quantify these but if you had to give rough estimates? I may consider a fast day or at least reduced feedings in my year old Sajica growouts as well.

 

[RD.]

It's more of an observational thing, each fish can vary somewhat, especially dependent on quantity being fed. For midas, approx 8-9" range for males. Let their circumference be your guide, more than length. A hungry fish is a healthy fish. Lots of obese fish out there.

 

[jjohnwm]

I vividly recall when I started in the hobby, and the books available back then set the stage for this temperature obsession that still seems to grip much of the hobby today.

"My tank is kept at 78.623F, and I am thinking about lowering that to 78.016F. Will that be too cold? How long should I spread the temperature change over? I'm thinking of spending the upcoming long weekend to monitor and control the temperature drop. I don't want to stress my fish!"

We were also constantly being warned that Ich would take hold in our tanks if the fish experienced any kind of sudden drop in temperature.

Today, I keep a number of stock tanks outside from late spring until mid-autumn. They can hit temps in the high 80F range in mid-summer, sometimes higher if left unshaded. At the beginning and end of my outdoor-fish season, stock tanks can regularly experience 10-15F temperature swings within a 24-hour period with our warm days and cool nights...and this continues daily for weeks. Most fish I put outside...Goodeids, Swordtails, assorted cichids, Hoplo/Bristlenose/Scleromystax cats, Heterandria mosquitofish, Jordanella killifish, Medakas and many others...grow faster and are far more colourful than their indoor counterparts, despite the fact that the indoor fish are well-fed by me, while the outdoor ones get the occasional pinch of food from me but generally are left to their own devices when it comes to nutrition. All the species listed above are regularly exposed to temps below 60F for days or weeks on end.

Fish didn't evolve in controlled laboratory conditions. They are adapted by nature to withstand a range of temperatures and other conditions; I think that allowing them to experience this broader range will result in healthier, more resilient specimens. Not all will do well at 60F, to be sure...but there likely aren't any species of freshwater fish that require the kind of rigid temperature control that most people insist upon.

 

[platy21]

It's more of an observational thing, each fish can vary somewhat, especially dependent on quantity being fed. For midas, approx 8-9" range for males. Let their circumference be your guide, more than length. A hungry fish is a healthy fish. Lots of obese fish out there.

Makes sense. Frequent feedings watching for signs of becoming overweight. And the fish in our tanks spend no where near the amount of calories than their wild counterparts.

These Midas haven’t eaten yet, still hiding and very skittish. I’m thinking it will take them a bit to feel comfortable and come out. Don’t know if I should have considered some swordtails or platys to help as temporary dither fish.

I vividly recall when I started in the hobby, and the books available back then set the stage for this temperature obsession that still seems to grip much of the hobby today.

"My tank is kept at 78.623F, and I am thinking about lowering that to 78.016F. Will that be too cold? How long should I spread the temperature change over? I'm thinking of spending the upcoming long weekend to monitor and control the temperature drop. I don't want to stress my fish!"

We were also constantly being warned that Ich would take hold in our tanks if the fish experienced any kind of sudden drop in temperature.

Today, I keep a number of stock tanks outside from late spring until mid-autumn. They can hit temps in the high 80F range in mid-summer, sometimes higher if left unshaded. At the beginning and end of my outdoor-fish season, stock tanks can regularly experience 10-15F temperature swings within a 24-hour period with our warm days and cool nights...and this continues daily for weeks. Most fish I put outside...Goodeids, Swordtails, assorted cichids, Hoplo/Bristlenose/Scleromystax cats, Heterandria mosquitofish, Jordanella killifish, Medakas and many others...grow faster and are far more colourful than their indoor counterparts, despite the fact that the indoor fish are well-fed by me, while the outdoor ones get the occasional pinch of food from me but generally are left to their own devices when it comes to nutrition. All the species listed above are regularly exposed to temps below 60F for days or weeks on end.

Fish didn't evolve in controlled laboratory conditions. They are adapted by nature to withstand a range of temperatures and other conditions; I think that allowing them to experience this broader range will result in healthier, more resilient specimens. Not all will do well at 60F, to be sure...but there likely aren't any species of freshwater fish that require the kind of rigid temperature control that most people insist upon.

The reefing world gets like that sometimes- obsession over numbers and debating what is and isn’t considered stable. There’s been conversation lately that providing some minor variations in conditions actually can help corals become more resilient to change. Anecdotally it makes sense as long term aquacultured corals are much more resilience and easier to keep than a coral taken from the ocean.

My Goodeids are in unheated tanks in the same room as the Midas; Xenotoca lyonsi and some H. formosa being right below the Midas tank. I’ve never tried taking any fish outdoors in the summer but it’s a goal of mine next year. Everyone who I’ve seen post about summers outdoors or talk about their experiences always say how healthy the fish look in the fall and how quickly they reproduce. I think you’re right- most fish didn’t evolve in strict conditions. Maybe the success of outdoor tubs is in part caused by a return to a more natural state. And while I do believe generations of tank raised fish are hardier to captive conditions compared to their wild counterparts, that amount of time is a drop in the evolutionary bucket.

 

[platy21]

Some pictures as I was removing them from their shipping bags yesterday.

 

[RD.]

#2 for the win. lol. Nice looking group of juvies.

 

[platy21]

The white spotting stood out to me in number two. Since these are my first Midas- was there anything that stands out to you about number two or just personal preference?

They ate some NLS flake last night, darting out of their hiding places to grab a piece. Tonight they are out and about and tried two difference types of NLS pellets- cichlids formula and algaemax, and Fluval Bug Flakes. Ate everything no problem.

 

[cich78]

Ken Davis is the go to guy for Citrinellus, I've always kept my tanks at or near 80°to grow fish out and maintain them at that temp and only occasionally and often by accident have it lower temp.My personal observation that is no surprise to anyone is when it comes to Midas ( Citrinellus)is that tanks kept in the near 80° and with a constant supply of food. Citrinellus among others cichlids stay in a forever state of prespawning ,the tank is their territory and they literally stay physically pumped up to defend it. And that manifests in the the large nuchal and throat humps that the males often have. I don't know about anyone else but for what I've seen males in the wild. don't get these traits to the same degree as males and captivity ( unlike say a Dovii which you see much bigger wild with nuchal hump than captive speciemen)And I would guess it's because of the factors of a by default a selected territory, constant food and higher temperature in captivity that they don't have in the wild....... Just my thought.....

 

[RD.]

My personal observation that is no surprise to anyone is when it comes to Midas ( Citrinellus)is that tanks kept in the near 80° and with a constant supply of food. Citrinellus among others cichlids stay in a forever state of prespawning ,the tank is their territory and they literally stay physically pumped up to defend it.

This is true, and is also why many flowerhorn keepers maintain their tanks at 80-84F. The problem with warmer water, is the higher the temp, the more certain harmful pathogens proliferate - hence the reason why many FH keepers have outbreaks of Flexibactor columnaris aka Flavobacterium columnare aka Duck Lips. what temp for flowerhorn? | MonsterFishKeepers.com

All of the traits that cich78 previously mentioned, can be gleaned at cooler temps, in the 76-78 range. I posted the following back in 2012.
The Nuchal Hump in Amphilophus | MonsterFishKeepers.com

sbgbuddy 's comm tank is a good result of what happens when males are kept together, such as described in the previous link by George Barlow.
Amphilophus community. | MonsterFishKeepers.com

My lone male has always been territorial, and aggressive, and the only time I have seen his nuchal hump decrease in size, is when I had his tank at 70-72F for an extended period of time after a heater failed. Some of this is of course genetics, my male ran the tank when he was a 3" juvie. A 6 ft 125, with as I recall had 12-14 of his siblings in it with him. He totally dominated the tank at that size, running fish from one end to the other.

Speaking of genetics, check out this beast of Ken's. Midas | MonsterFishKeepers.com
He hasn't been on MFK in several yrs, and while I don't know what temp he kept his midas at, I do recall his stating that he went light on feedings (and it shows in his pics) to keep him in a pissed off state. Now after a female was added, and food increased.
Juggernaut and New Female (Midas) | MonsterFishKeepers.com

That thread took a bit of a turn along the way, but some good info on cit genetics for those interested.


Ken's youtube links no longer work, so I went and dug up this one, his last thread before I reckon wife & baby took over his life.

If you read through all of that, quantity of food was discussed a number of times, between Scott, and Ken, who owned sibling males. Ken's fish, that was fed a lot more sparingly, was the one with the largest nuchal hump.

HTH