An old problem has returned again in the 125

[FINWIN]

Sorry to hear. Major bummer

Maybe some fish just don't last anywhere near as long as potential lifespan listed. Over a week ago he was perfectly fine and had greedy appetite and was normal. I've not lost any juveniles or babies to sudden death/infection in the same conditions at all. Confusing and frustrating. Like hitting a wall all of a sudden. There's no long drop-off, just sudden infection and rolling over.

SAME situation with all my acaras, perfectly fine and healthy into adulthood then developing all kinds of costly health issues and rollover.

 

[phreeflow]

Never figured out why fish do that sometimes. I hate it when they suddenly die inexplicably with little chance of treatment. And like you said, it’s always seems to happen to my favorite fish

 

[jjohnwm]

I've consoled myself in the past (and done a poor job of it...) with the realization that this happens even to some people. We know far more about the problems of human physiology than those of fish...but some people still keel over dead with no discernible signs of an impending problem, or in many more cases with a very rapid decline in the final days.

It's futile and silly to describe an event like this as happening "for no reason", but many people still like to use that term. Of course there's a reason, but that doesn't mean that we will know what it is or that we will see it coming. We're never going to know it all.

Llifespan? Big difference between "potential" and "average".

Death and taxes.

 

[duanes]

Rumors of my death are slightly exaggerated; but not unexpected.
I'm counting on ancient Chinese secret.

One of my favorite fish just got into a biff with another one, and the encounter broke or dislocated its jaw.
Survival is highly unlikely, what ever I try.


.

 

[jjohnwm]

@duanes ...are you aware that you have a bunch of finishing nails stuck into your head?

If this is part of a study of HITH disease, I think you are on the wrong track. I'm pretty sure the disease is caused by bacteria rather than by commercial fasteners being used incorrectly.

But it's apropos to this debate. Weird traditional medicines and treatments probably work for some people, specifically for those people who think they might be doing some good. If you believe it will help, you will have a positive outlook and this alone can likely spell the difference between healing and not healing, in at least some cases. The nails don't cure you; the positive mental energy they foster in you cures you.

In my case, nails in my skull wouldn't do anything good, because I wouldn't expect them to, wouldn't believe they could help...and so my negative mental state would allow my affliction to continue unchecked.

But with fish, it's different. Too much stress can help make them sick...and reducing stress can help them get better...but there is no conscious thought process going on that can be affected for better or worse by anything we do. Whether or not we believe something will help...is not going to make the slightest difference to the fish. Snake oil is snake oil. You can Melafix the crap out of your fish but it's only going to make you feel better, not the fish.

Edited to add: Have you ever experimented with manually "re-setting" the dislocated jaw of a fish? I've done this a few times in the past when, as you stated, survival seemed unlikely. If the fish doesn't manage to re-locate the jaw by itself within a day or so, I have tried just holding the lower jaw, pulling it out/forward ever so slightly and then gently pushing it back into what appeared to be the natural location. A couple of these fish died soon after...no real loss, since I'm sure they would have done so in any case. But in at least two instances, the fish seemed to recover. Once it was a small Largemouth Bass that a yahoo neighbour kid was handling as though he had a world record fish; he had that poor fish's jaw so overextended it made my own jaw sore. That bass lived in a stocktank in the yard at the cottage for several weeks and was then released, looking very healthy when he swam away. The other was an Oscar who came out on the losing end of a liplock with another fish; he went on to live in my tank for several more years after that incident.

 

[FINWIN]

@duanes ...are you aware that you have a bunch of finishing nails stuck into your head?

If this is part of a study of HITH disease, I think you are on the wrong track. I'm pretty sure the disease is caused by bacteria rather than by commercial fasteners being used incorrectly.

But it's apropos to this debate. Weird traditional medicines and treatments probably work for some people, specifically for those people who think they might be doing some good. If you believe it will help, you will have a positive outlook and this alone can likely spell the difference between healing and not healing, in at least some cases. The nails don't cure you; the positive mental energy they foster in you cures you.

In my case, nails in my skull wouldn't do anything good, because I wouldn't expect them to, wouldn't believe they could help...and so my negative mental state would allow my affliction to continue unchecked.

But with fish, it's different. Too much stress can help make them sick...and reducing stress can help them get better...but there is no conscious thought process going on that can be affected for better or worse by anything we do. Whether or not we believe something will help...is not going to make the slightest difference to the fish. Snake oil is snake oil. You can Melafix the crap out of your fish but it's only going to make you feel better, not the fish.

Edited to add: Have you ever experimented with manually "re-setting" the dislocated jaw of a fish? I've done this a few times in the past when, as you stated, survival seemed unlikely. If the fish doesn't manage to re-locate the jaw by itself within a day or so, I have tried just holding the lower jaw, pulling it out/forward ever so slightly and then gently pushing it back into what appeared to be the natural location. A couple of these fish died soon after...no real loss, since I'm sure they would have done so in any case. But in at least two instances, the fish seemed to recover. Once it was a small Largemouth Bass that a yahoo neighbour kid was handling as though he had a world record fish; he had that poor fish's jaw so overextended it made my own jaw sore. That bass lived in a stocktank in the yard at the cottage for several weeks and was then released, looking very healthy when he swam away. The other was an Oscar who came out on the losing end of a liplock with another fish; he went on to live in my tank for several more years after that incident.

Believe it or not, Brick dislocated his jaw once. It was completely sideways at the bottom. Got too excited and came flying in my direction running head on into the glass. He was just under a foot at the time so I wasn't crazy about hauling him out to try and pop it in. I tried catching him with the trout net. He freaked out, banged his jaw against the glass and knocked it back into place. I couldn't believe the luck.

I know there's been a lot of discussion about hybrids and I'm no genetics expert. But the little I understand is that some phenotypes are more compatible for crossing if they share dna ancestry. The ones too dissimilar have the most problems. In other words all hybrids aren't created equal.

For example I had no idea the electric blue acaras are really ram crosses. Despite my poor luck with them it wouldn't prevent me from getting another (maybe a regular blue instead). They are so lively and intelligent. Maybe the true blue ones are sturdier?
I've had 5 of them. 4 have rolled over with swim bladder/infection once they hit adulthood. The fifth one died slowly from an injury which turned into infection.

The other hybrid extreme are the blood parrots. Currently they are my oldest fish. They have survived stress tanks, mistakes by me, and crazy tankmates. Boss and Kong are somewhere in the 6 to 7 year age range. Tango is around 5. All are doing well. the only fish I have that never got ick or velvet even in fully infected tanks.

Boss is ~8" (avatar)
Kong 8"
Tango 8 1/2+"

I believe some species like convicts are just more resistant to stressors. Just like some fish roll over quick at any environmental change.

 

[Conchonius]

My take is that you might be taking care of them a little too well.

There's a direct tradeoff between feeding/mating success and lifespan. If you keep an animal on the verge of starvation, its metabolism basically digests its own reproductive system (as the conditions clearly aren't ideal for raising young) and enters a kind of "power saving mode", allowing it to resist the elements and survive longer. In rats this can end up being a 25% increase in longevity, in worms it can be as long as double. On the other hand, if you feed your fish a hearty diet and let them go through the natural cichlid cycle of sex, drugs and violence, then the bright candle thing will come into play.

Nevertheless, if you let the fish choose for themselves, they would probably pick the live-fast-die-young approach over a longer life in austerity conditions. Still sucks to lose a prized fish, and of course it'd be possible to get a couple more years out of him had the infection been cured, but one must imagine Slade happy.

(Also, blood parrots are mostly sterile, aren't they? That might come into play with respect to their longevity).

 

[FINWIN]

My take is that you might be taking care of them a little too well.

There's a direct tradeoff between feeding/mating success and lifespan. If you keep an animal on the verge of starvation, its metabolism basically digests its own reproductive system (as the conditions clearly aren't ideal for raising young) and enters a kind of "power saving mode", allowing it to resist the elements and survive longer. In rats this can end up being a 25% increase in longevity, in worms it can be as long as double. On the other hand, if you feed your fish a hearty diet and let them go through the natural cichlid cycle of sex, drugs and violence, then the bright candle thing will come into play.

Nevertheless, if you let the fish choose for themselves, they would probably pick the live-fast-die-young approach over a longer life in austerity conditions. Still sucks to lose a prized fish, and of course it'd be possible to get a couple more years out of him had the infection been cured, but one must imagine Slade happy.

(Also, blood parrots are mostly sterile, aren't they? That might come into play with respect to their longevity).

You've given me something to think about. The hrps have a complex family dynamic that is amazing to see. There was some jockeying for position after Slade was removed. The 125 is basically been an all male tank for some time. I have 3 unsexed juvies, Outlaw Baby and Fric and Frac. The rest include Mongo, his striped sons and Slade's sons.

The parrots were separated some time ago due to aggression (2020). After they established a pecking order they couldn't be in the same tank. Originally they were in the 225 with other fish.

Female bps are fertile. The males are sketchy. Fertile ones are rare.

 

[jjohnwm]

My take is that you might be taking care of them a little too well.

There's a direct tradeoff between feeding/mating success and lifespan. If you keep an animal on the verge of starvation, its metabolism basically digests its own reproductive system (as the conditions clearly aren't ideal for raising young) and enters a kind of "power saving mode", allowing it to resist the elements and survive longer. In rats this can end up being a 25% increase in longevity, in worms it can be as long as double. On the other hand, if you feed your fish a hearty diet and let them go through the natural cichlid cycle of sex, drugs and violence, then the bright candle thing will come into play.

Nevertheless, if you let the fish choose for themselves, they would probably pick the live-fast-die-young approach over a longer life in austerity conditions. Still sucks to lose a prized fish, and of course it'd be possible to get a couple more years out of him had the infection been cured, but one must imagine Slade happy.

(Also, blood parrots are mostly sterile, aren't they? That might come into play with respect to their longevity).

Good point...but the entire time that the fish is in energy-saving mode is a natural adaptation to allow it to survive long enough to get through the period of poor nutrition, take advantage of the next surge of plenty and immediately dive back into its preferred natural state of sex and violence and rock'n'roll. That's the ultimate goal of any organism. Sure, everything seeks out food and shelter, and strives to avoid predation...but those are all secondary to the actual aim, which is to survive long enough to procreate successfully. In the case of cichlids, a corollary of that goal is to prevent its siblings and neighbours from successfully grabbing the prime breeding spots and feeding areas,

So, maybe taking "good" care of these creatures means letting them achieve their natural goal....even if that means letting them fight for dominance, sometimes to the point of killing one another. If you want to keep cichlids, well then...you really must let them be cichlids, not try to turn them into guppies, IMHO.

I joke around about what I call @FINWIN -style tanks...but those tanks are that way because of the species that live in them. I don't care for the high-stress cichlid community tanks that so many people enjoy...so I largely avoid cichlids.

Right now, I have two pairs of Cichlasoma dimerus cichlids, currently living in temperatures of about 55-60F in my basement. I like looking at 'em; they have a subtly beautiful colouration, and at these temps they are calm, relaxed and totally nonaggressive to either their tankmates (goldfish, Gymno, Garras, etc.) or to each other. But next spring, they will go back outside into a stock tank. That's when they turn...well, back into cichlids. The two males will fight incessantly...one will get the everloving crap kicked out of him...they will lay eggs multiple times over the summer, and always eat them or the newly-hatched fry...and I will finish the warm season hating them.

It happened in a 4-foot tank...then in a 5-footer, and again in a 6-footer. Next summer they will get their own 8-foot diameter tank, in hopes of letting them coexist. But...they're cichlids, so...you know.

I'm hoping the constant stress won't make me sick.