Aquarium leveling mats.

[RD.]

Happy Boxing Day!

It actually can hurt, if the tank has plastic trim. At least if one has to ever file a claim with a LFS, or manufacturer. So that's one potential down side. I have seen this exact issue in the past, where a consumer did not follow the manufacturers set up instructions involving foam/no-foam, and after a failure in a new tank the warranty was void. If you have no warranty to fall back on, I guess do whatever you feel is best.

From a past discussion on this topic.

If the tank has plastic trim, most manufacturers will void warranty if one uses foam. It does not act as a level if the tank has plastic trim. Just so that's clear, foam should only be used when the tank is custom made, with a flat rimless bottom.

Yep, most ithe USA will void the warranty if foam isused, certainly most of the large scale aquarium manufacturers. Some others, smaller scale builders, insist that it is used, or their warranty is void. Some state that you have to use their stands, or similar stands that would meet their specs. When in Rome ....

What the pics don't show is on the more common aquariums sold in the USA, Aqueon, Perfecto, All-Glass, etc, that bottom pane of glass is raised slightly from the black trim, and the tank then rests on the black trim, and when using one of their stands such as above, it only rests on each 4 corners. If one used styro on those style of tanks, when the plastic trim settled, it could potentially push the styro up enough to cause a crack in the glass, or a leak in a seam.

I have only ever shimmed the stand, never shimmed a tank, or ran a sheet of anything under a tank with plastic trim.


A couple of past threads that you might want to check out, Barrett.

Who puts polystyrene underneath their tank

Ive done this in the past, and wanted to know if it is absolutely essential or not. and what other things can you put instead, im guessing anything that will even out the pressure on the glass.

www.monsterfishkeepers.com

Cinder block stand

Guys im looking for quick and cheap way to build a stand for a 75 gal or 40b tank. Can you guys give me some pointers on doing it with cinderblocks and possibly post some pics of you're stands. Some questions off the top of my head: Points of contact - where on the bottom of the tank should...

www.monsterfishkeepers.com

Pics missing from first link above can be seen here:

Good luck

 

[jjohnwm]

You're correct, of course. I guess I should have said it can't hurt the tank...but of course anything that can be used as a loophole to avoid honouring a warranty claim must be considered, and as a chronic DIY-er I failed to do that. And, honestly, what else would you call this? Do aquariums fail because of a rubber gasket cushioning imperfections in a stand...or do lawyers look for any possible way out of honouring a claim when an aquarium fails?

I just file it under the same heading as fully-submersible aquarium heaters that have instructions cautioning you not to use them fully submersed...or aquarium lights bearing warnings not to use them near water...dang liability issues...

How about it, TwoTankAmin ? Are you going to remove all those foam pads on your tanks? I know I am...

 

[RD.]

Placing styro under a tank with a moulded frame (which Perfecto & All-Glass tanks all have) is a waste of both time & money, and in most cases will also cause the warranty of the aquarium to be void. The key is to level the stand, not the tank.

Aquariums only need to be evenly supported (as in no twisting force) on all 4 corners. The fact that many hobbyists use styro, and/or swear by it, doesn't prove anything. Many hobbyists also swear by using eggcrate to support rocks etc, and feel that it is somehow distributing the weight of the rocks better than the glass could. It doesn't.

The original All-Glass tanks in the US were built without any plastic frame, without any kind of frame at all. European tanks are for the most part still frameless. Europeans use styro as the vast majority of their tanks do not have plastic moulded frames, and in that case using something such as styro is a very good idea. In many cases the manufacturers of those tanks (solid glass bottoms) will void the warranty if you don't use styro under the base of the aquarium. Ditto to many larger tanks built in the USA.

So to styro or not really boils down to what style of tank one owns.

Just to prove a point that aquariums with molded frames only need to be supported evenly in each of their 4 corners ......

Andy Hudson from Central Aquatics (the owners of All-Glass aquariums) Research & Development dept. states the same thing and I have seen him set up tanks with rocks loaded to the brim, solid rocks, with no eggcrate, and no styro under the tank. Load testing to the extreme.

When in doubt, check with your aquarium manufacturer as per their set up instructions, and their warranty.

Every situation can be different, depends on the specifics, including stand materials and designs. I’m not going to assume anything, with someone else’s potential disaster. I have personally seen enough over the years, many here on MFK to know that sometimes bad things happen, no matter how careful one is. Large scale manufacturer’s spend a ton of money over several decades, on research and development, and safety. The last thing they want is a claim filed over a tank, or stand failure. Ask IKEA how that plays out, especially when children are involved. In fact, I can’t recall the last time I have read about any large scale aquarium manufacturer tank/stand failure, when the combo is set up as per the manufacturers instructions. If their non-foam use was an issue, I’m rather certain it would be well advertised on forums such as this one, but that’s not been the case.
The reality is that failure claims in extreme situations can cost manufacturers mega millions when disaster strikes. Again, ask IKEA how that plays out in court. Aquarium manufacturers haven’t just been lucky all these years, with the millions of glass boxes they have produced, and sold.

 

[RD.]

A framed tank benefits from a strip of similar material all the way around, between the frame and the stand, for the same reason.

John, I tend to agree with the majority of what you post here on MFK, and probably a lot more lol, but we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

Most, if not all, tanks built with plastic molded trim, such as the one shown in TwoTankAmin post, are designed to be supported in all 4 corners, not the entire bottom of the plastic trim. Even tanks in the 200+ gallon range. This point is often missed in these discussions. That's not me saying that one cannot, or even should not, support them otherwise, just pointing out that most manufacturers do not design their tanks to be supported in that fashion. (by the entire bottom edge of plastic trim) Most of the common large scale aquarium manufacturers based in the USA, such as Aqueon, Perfecto, All-Glass, etc, have the bottom pane of glass raised slightly from the plastic trim, and the tank then rests only on the trim. When using one of their stands, it only rests on each of the 4 corners.

I'm not so sure that one should assume that our tests with a very limited overall number tanks are more advanced than a manufacturer that has spent spent countless sums of time & money testing their products, some spanning over several decades. Having had a number of convos with some of the folks in aquarium manufacturers R&D departments over the past couple of decades, I tend to lean towards what they recommend, regarding their products. Their comments/suggestions usually seem to make pretty good sense, and they have the in-house research to support it. My advice has always been to follow the manufacturers recommendation when setting up any glass aquarium. Most of them should have a very good idea as to what will offer their customers the highest rate of long term success.

In the pics below, for maximum strength the cinder blocks should have been stacked with the holes facing upwards, but these old pics from a past discussion illustrate my point regarding support on a tank with plastic trim. As far as I recollect, these tanks had been set up in this manner at the LFS for years. Not something that I would highly recommend, but it demonstrates the point about the entire bottom of a plastic molded tank not needing to be supported along its entire bottom edge.

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[esoxlucius]

John, I tend to agree with the majority of what you post here on MFK, and probably a lot more lol, but we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

Most, if not all, tanks built with plastic molded trim, such as the one shown in TwoTankAmin post, are designed to be supported in all 4 corners, not the entire bottom of the plastic trim. Even tanks in the 200+ gallon range. This point is often missed in these discussions. That's not me saying that one cannot, or even should not, support them otherwise, just pointing out that most manufacturers do not design their tanks to be supported in that fashion. (by the entire bottom edge of plastic trim) Most of the common large scale aquarium manufacturers based in the USA, such as Aqueon, Perfecto, All-Glass, etc, have the bottom pane of glass raised slightly from the plastic trim, and the tank then rests only on the trim. When using one of their stands, it only rests on each of the 4 corners.

I'm not so sure that one should assume that our tests with a very limited overall number tanks are more advanced than a manufacturer that has spent spent countless sums of time & money testing their products, some spanning over several decades. Having had a number of convos with some of the folks in aquarium manufacturers R&D departments over the past couple of decades, I tend to lean towards what they recommend, regarding their products. Their comments/suggestions usually seem to make pretty good sense, and they have the in-house research to support it. My advice has always been to follow the manufacturers recommendation when setting up any glass aquarium. Most of them should have a very good idea as to what will offer their customers the highest rate of long term success.

In the pics below, for maximum strength the cinder blocks should have been stacked with the holes facing upwards, but these old pics from a past discussion illustrate my point regarding support on a tank with plastic trim. As far as I recollect, these tanks had been set up in this manner at the LFS for years. Not something that I would highly recommend, but it demonstrates the point about the entire bottom of a plastic molded tank not needing to be supported along its entire bottom edge.

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Those pictures absolutely scare the hell out of me. Even though, as the pictures prove, the tanks are fine like that long term. It just looks wrong, very very wrong.

Tanks with plastic trim also scare the hell out of me. The whole tank raised and in effect all that weight supported by a plastic edge. I've worked with plastics for nigh on 30 years and know just how plastic, even tough grades, can fail, over time.

For me, it's rimless tanks, with styofoam, plonked on a beast of a home made stand, everytime, lol.

 

[RD.]

Tanks with plastic trim also scare the hell out of me. The whole tank raised and in effect all that weight supported by a plastic edge. I've worked with plastics for nigh on 30 years and know just how plastic, even tough grades, can fail, over time.

No disagreement there. The plastic trim most definitely has a limited lifespan, but surprisingly enough on average they seem to last a good 20+ years, long beyond most warranties. lol


BTW - the vast majority of these plastic trims that I have seen fail, fail somewhere on the top trim, rarely if ever on the bottom.

 

[jjohnwm]

John, I tend to agree with the majority of what you post here on MFK, and probably a lot more lol, but we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

Most, if not all, tanks built with plastic molded trim, such as the one shown in TwoTankAmin post, are designed to be supported in all 4 corners, not the entire bottom of the plastic trim. Even tanks in the 200+ gallon range. This point is often missed in these discussions. That's not me saying that one cannot, or even should not, support them otherwise, just pointing out that most manufacturers do not design their tanks to be supported in that fashion. (by the entire bottom edge of plastic trim) Most of the common large scale aquarium manufacturers based in the USA, such as Aqueon, Perfecto, All-Glass, etc, have the bottom pane of glass raised slightly from the plastic trim, and the tank then rests only on the trim. When using one of their stands, it only rests on each of the 4 corners.

I'm not so sure that one should assume that our tests with a very limited overall number tanks are more advanced than a manufacturer that has spent spent countless sums of time & money testing their products, some spanning over several decades. Having had a number of convos with some of the folks in aquarium manufacturers R&D departments over the past couple of decades, I tend to lean towards what they recommend, regarding their products. Their comments/suggestions usually seem to make pretty good sense, and they have the in-house research to support it. My advice has always been to follow the manufacturers recommendation when setting up any glass aquarium. Most of them should have a very good idea as to what will offer their customers the highest rate of long term success.

In the pics below, for maximum strength the cinder blocks should have been stacked with the holes facing upwards, but these old pics from a past discussion illustrate my point regarding support on a tank with plastic trim. As far as I recollect, these tanks had been set up in this manner at the LFS for years. Not something that I would highly recommend, but it demonstrates the point about the entire bottom of a plastic molded tank not needing to be supported along its entire bottom edge.

Lol, no problem...I don't suppose that even great minds must always agree!

I'd like to think that companies look after the best interests of their customers as a way of insuring their own best interests, but the cynic in me balks at that. Maybe I need to make a New Year's resolution to try being more trusting. But then again, many of those manufacturers sell aquarium stands made of MDF or particle board! Short of supporting your fishtank on a stack of sugar cubes, I can't imagine a worse material to choose for that purpose, but they continue to sell them. Of course, they also build tanks out of thin glass that would have been laughed at a few decades ago also.

Back in my misspent youth, I spent a couple summers working for an all-glass tank maker who insisted that a soft layer between a tank and a stand was indispensable. Those tanks were both framed and frameless, and the only caveat he emphasized is one mentioned in your posts above as well, i.e., a soft base layer that covers the entire tank bottom, when used with a framed tank, might push up on the glass in the middle of the bottom and cause a problem. I don't recall that he ever actually had a failure caused by that, but rather think that he was just being cautious.

So, let's say that your tank is designed and intended to be supported at the corners only. You get it home, along with your shiny new MDF stand, and when you set it up you find that it contacts the stand all the way around the frame. A "soft bed" will certainly mitigate any pressure points caused by high spots, whether they are caused by warping of the stand (perhaps it absorbed some perspiration as you slugged it into the house, and the MDF has begun to exhibit its characteristic swelling! ) or some tiny particle that happens to find its way onto the surface of the stand. If the stand is wood you're likely safe, but wood is a natural material that has its own quirks and a smooth perfect planed/sanded surface can easily have a knot or a screw pop up a bit at some point. Again, a soft bed will absorb and even out such tiny imperfections.

So, making the stand out of the cheapest material possible...constructed in the cheapest manner possible...to support a tank made in similar fashion, out of the thinnest glass possible...and then marketing the finished products to the masses, meaning that it must be geared to the lowest denominator of common sense, practical experience and mechanical aptitude...while also satisfying the legal liability requirements...results in no "wiggle room" at all. Do it this way...and no other!...because we just can't trust you folks to think this stuff through and we know better anyway...trust us! It's not a scam; they are simply protecting themselves from their customers.

Think about this: automotive GPS makers market their products to the general driving public. That includes a certain percentage of people who have been known to drive off an embankment or into a river, because they trusted their GPS units and didn't pay attention to where they were going. They just weren't thinking. I don't want to be the aquarium-keeping version of those folks.

 

[RD.]

You get it home, along with your shiny new MDF stand, and when you set it up you find that it contacts the stand all the way around the frame

I think that you would have to look closely look at one of these stand designs, in order to understand how/why that won't happen. If you build them up with foam from the bottom side, the trim would sit up too high, instead of being flush with the stand trim. Clearly sitting flush, or slightly lower then the trim on the stand, is aesthetically pleasing to the eye, as one would expect it to be. Black trim doesn't blend too well with oak wood, or most other woods. Other than black pine etc I guess. I have 2 six foot stands, one custom design made out of oak by a local craftsman, one MDF ( I scored the MDF almost new stand/canopy for next to nothing) , both are made in a style called Mission, made by All-Glass, now Aqueon. As seen below. The stand made from oak has a solid plywood base, the MDF is supported on the 4 corners. Neither has foam anywhere, the oak stand has been this way for 20 yrs or more I think, the MDF for close to 15. My All-Glass 90 gallon tank/pine stand is the same. The support comes from the corners, not the length in the front/back. The support in those areas would amount to adding a 1" wide 1/4" strip of trim, on the front and back lengths of those tanks suppoerted by cinder blocks. That 1" wide strip of 1/4" wood would amount to nothing in the way of actual support. It would therefore become meaningless to add foam to that flimsy strip of nothingness. The only true support is again, in the 4 corners.

BTW - while I hate almost everything about MDF, and live in a house where everything is made from real wood, a lot of it dating back 100+ yrs in age, and still as strong as the day that it was built, that MDF stand is still holding up as well as its oak twin. The trick with MDF is to not get it wet, or at the very least if one does have an accident (I have) wipe the water up straight away, to prevent long term damage from swelling. Not making an excuse for its use, but if cared for it does hold up.

 

[jjohnwm]

How on earth did I lose track of this thread? Just found it by accident again now...

You are, of course, correct in stating that an engineered stand constructed of MDF will hold up as intended, if instructions are followed.

But, do the instructions state "do not allow water to contact stand"? If you can actually set up a tank on a stand, keep it there for years...and never get the stand wet...I am envious. I know I'm a klutz...I know I will eventually, somehow, some way get water on the stand, and everything else within arms' reach...guaranteed. Not the end of the world if I see and clean up the mess right away...but what if I am not aware of it, or don't get it all...?

Or, if the instructions don't warn you about water...and yet you know that MDF just doesn't mix well with that awful stuff...surely you can't trust anything else they tell you either.

Building a stand to hold up an aquarium out of material that shouldn't contact water simply makes no sense to me. I'm a cheapskate DIY guy, so I am force to rely upon my own intuition and logic in choosing a course of action, since none of my projects come with instructions; hell, some of them aren't even built to a plan, they just sort of grow...

But I won't suggest others follow that same haphazard path with commercially-purchased products!