Big news for the amatitlania world
- Thread starter Hybridfish7
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Whatever this thing is it's gonna be really blue when it's fully grown.
I will say these look exactly like the blues that came out of the platinum/black trade strain cross I messed with a few years ago. I at the time thought there was some sort of dominance thing going on, given the cross produced a 50/50 split of the blue and black genotypes (with an additional overlapping 50/50 split of leucism, implying the female was carrying the leucism gene) but given neither parent in this crossing was visually blue, it would make more sense to assume that the blue gene is recessive, and pops up in American cichlids the same way things like leucism and short body genes pop up through inbreeding. The iridescent gene seems to be a completely separate thing. I've seen it in lake xiloa convicts and certain kanna populations over an otherwise grey body. The iridescent gene, in tandem with the blue gene, seems to produce what we know as Honduran red points.
One of the blue ones from that cross:
That same fish as a baby:
Baby blue lake nicaragua:
Most convict localities in the hobby were only collected once or twice, and have been in the hobby for decades, so it would make sense for mutations like this to pop up naturally (given the lake nicaraguas from Ken just haven't been crossed with anything to begin with). Rusty allegedly specified that the los almendros individuals he collected were a distinct "blue form". I suspect the blue coloration naturally popping up in convicts is more similar to that of the electric blue gene in andinoacara pulcher and rocio octofasciata-- both of which are recessive as well.
Natural mutations like these aren't too uncommon in species, especially in American cichlids, as things like xanthism are extremely common throughout central america. There is a paper by Arturo Angulo that discusses the prevalence of "xanthism" in Costa Rican cichlids. So far from what I've seen in general, species that have been found with the "xanthic" phenotype in the wild include:
Cichlasoma amazonarum
Parachromis managuensis
Parachromis dovii
Tomocichla tuba
Talamancaheros underwoodi
Amphilophus citrinellum
Amphilophus labiatus
Amphilophus sagittae
Amphilophus xiloaensis
Amphilophus tolteca
Herichthys minckleyi
Hypsophrys nicaraguensis
Vieja bifasciata
Petenia splendida
You could put vieja fenestrata from catemaco on here too but they're more of a pink.. they still peel like "xanthic" amphilophus though.
Color mutations are weird, and while most people lump these under "xanthism" (probably because they all make the fish some form of yellow), there's several genes that make these colorations, for example the xanthism in p managuensis and c amazonarum are recessive and are more of a hypomelanism/leucism type trait (fish is born with reduced melanin), whereas the "peeling" genes in amphilophus, v fenestrata and p dovii are dominant, and the fish is not born with the yellow/orange coloration. I don't know about the other ones as to my knowledge they've only been observed in the wild. P multifasciatus, a septemfasciata/sajica/nigrofasciata, t meeki/panchovillai, and r octofasciata have all produced melanin reducing mutations in captivity however.
Electric blue rams also have their electric blue gene but this acts more like an incomplete dominant trait than a recessive. Parrots also have that blue mutation that pops up in species that naturally have some form of red or yellow.
All I'm trying to say is, while not disagreeing with anyone here, there is definitely a chance that these are a semi natural thing.
I will say these look exactly like the blues that came out of the platinum/black trade strain cross I messed with a few years ago. I at the time thought there was some sort of dominance thing going on, given the cross produced a 50/50 split of the blue and black genotypes (with an additional overlapping 50/50 split of leucism, implying the female was carrying the leucism gene) but given neither parent in this crossing was visually blue, it would make more sense to assume that the blue gene is recessive, and pops up in American cichlids the same way things like leucism and short body genes pop up through inbreeding. The iridescent gene seems to be a completely separate thing. I've seen it in lake xiloa convicts and certain kanna populations over an otherwise grey body. The iridescent gene, in tandem with the blue gene, seems to produce what we know as Honduran red points.
One of the blue ones from that cross:
That same fish as a baby:
Baby blue lake nicaragua:
Most convict localities in the hobby were only collected once or twice, and have been in the hobby for decades, so it would make sense for mutations like this to pop up naturally (given the lake nicaraguas from Ken just haven't been crossed with anything to begin with). Rusty allegedly specified that the los almendros individuals he collected were a distinct "blue form". I suspect the blue coloration naturally popping up in convicts is more similar to that of the electric blue gene in andinoacara pulcher and rocio octofasciata-- both of which are recessive as well.
Natural mutations like these aren't too uncommon in species, especially in American cichlids, as things like xanthism are extremely common throughout central america. There is a paper by Arturo Angulo that discusses the prevalence of "xanthism" in Costa Rican cichlids. So far from what I've seen in general, species that have been found with the "xanthic" phenotype in the wild include:
Cichlasoma amazonarum
Parachromis managuensis
Parachromis dovii
Tomocichla tuba
Talamancaheros underwoodi
Amphilophus citrinellum
Amphilophus labiatus
Amphilophus sagittae
Amphilophus xiloaensis
Amphilophus tolteca
Herichthys minckleyi
Hypsophrys nicaraguensis
Vieja bifasciata
Petenia splendida
You could put vieja fenestrata from catemaco on here too but they're more of a pink.. they still peel like "xanthic" amphilophus though.
Color mutations are weird, and while most people lump these under "xanthism" (probably because they all make the fish some form of yellow), there's several genes that make these colorations, for example the xanthism in p managuensis and c amazonarum are recessive and are more of a hypomelanism/leucism type trait (fish is born with reduced melanin), whereas the "peeling" genes in amphilophus, v fenestrata and p dovii are dominant, and the fish is not born with the yellow/orange coloration. I don't know about the other ones as to my knowledge they've only been observed in the wild. P multifasciatus, a septemfasciata/sajica/nigrofasciata, t meeki/panchovillai, and r octofasciata have all produced melanin reducing mutations in captivity however.
Electric blue rams also have their electric blue gene but this acts more like an incomplete dominant trait than a recessive. Parrots also have that blue mutation that pops up in species that naturally have some form of red or yellow.
All I'm trying to say is, while not disagreeing with anyone here, there is definitely a chance that these are a semi natural thing.
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The location was listed as lake nicaragua, from what I've seen in various observations and studies on convict populations across nicaragua, they are all pretty much the same fish. They were collected in 2006 or 7, probably why they look wacky. Unless of course they were crossed to something. Outside of breeding dress she looks more typical of the lake nicaragua population with the white/orange fins and red belly.
Either way In situations like thats why I’m very picky in buying fish unless I’m pretty sure they are that fish, I don’t mess around w guys crossing and hybridization stuff, not interested don’t trust they are keeping those fish separate from the real deal..
I have a female that looks like her, the face gets really dark. She gave 50% leucistic and 50% like her when with a pink convict but when she bred with a platinum male the pair produced all leucistic fry just various different shades of pink to platinum.
It's a bit suspicious because in the wild siquia, they just get a bar from the nose to the eye, meanwhile only type locality lineage nigrofasciata gets the dark face in breeding dress. Though like I keep saying their shape and color checks out to wild siquia. However I will say, that would also be pretty easy to breed for if you did cross them somewhere down the line. Ken Davis raises his convict fry of different strains in the same tanks, I wouldn't be surprised if he accidentally pulled the wrong fry to breed into the wrong population somewhere down the line.
Raises different types in the same tank? That’s a recipe for disaster..
I would suspect there has been a mix up somewhere. This has been ongoing since nigrofasciata has been in the hobby. Before there was any complete study and analysis most hobbyists unintentionally cross bred them.
To raise closely related species together usually doesn't end with pure as there is always the little guy sneaking in to fertilize the eggs.
