Discus and PH

THE FAMILY GUY

Plecostomus
MFK Member
Apr 20, 2011
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NEW YUCK CITY
Starting to set a 75 gallon discus show tank in the diningroom been doing my homework and research for a few months now but I have 2 questions.

I've heard of people using small amounts of distilled white vinegar to lower PH levels. Anyone with knowledge of this and is it safe?

I always see people using play sand or pool filter sand with their discus. Would using red garnet sand affect their colors and/or ph levels?

Any additional advice would be helpful as well
 

RD.

Gold Tier VIP
MFK Member
May 9, 2007
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Northwest Canada
Thank you for taking the time to put that together, neutrino. Now that Is IMO, sticky worthy!



I have never understood the dogmatic approach to keeping various regional species in certain water conditions, as though One Size Fits All. I have posted regarding this a number of times over the years, including in a sticky I wrote regarding HITH back in 2015. Re-posted part of it below.


Something else that is often asked is why does this disease seem to mostly affect Oscars, or Discus, or certain Geophagus species?

This has been discussed by myself, Tom, Matt, and no doubt numerous others over the years.
In the case of blackwater species I believe that those species found in acidic blackwater environments do not always cope well with various parasites/pathogens found in non blackwater environments. In their natural habitat many of these pathogens do not exist, and due to the acidity found in the water cannot survive.

There is much more than just pH involved, and even tannins, various other natural turpines and chemicals found in indigenous plant matter may not only keep the pH buffered quite low, but in some instances (such as Terminalia catappa aka Almond leaves) some of these various indigenous plant matter are also known to produce antimicrobial activity that suppresses both gram positive & gram negative bacteria. Take those species out of that "protective" environment, and introduce them to parameters outside their ideal range, and a fish that comes under stress (of any form) is going to be open for invasion from any number of pathogens that it would not normally encounter in the wild.



So for those keeping any of the more sensitive species my current advice would be as follows.

Feed a nutrient rich well balanced diet (sparingly, NOT power feeding) and that solves any potential problems in that area.

Next, keep your water clean, including filters, the less bacteria present the less potential for stress from poor water quality. Ditto to 02 levels ect.

Keep all stress levels low, which will keep any major outbreaks of pathogens at bay. (such as S. vortens)

And probably best to keep blackwater fish in blackwater conditions. Lower pH values, higher tannin etc levels, along with including certain plant matter such as Terminalia catappa that is known to increase antimicrobial activity.

............................................................

But that in no way equates to having to keep ALL of the various species found in the wild, from these areas of natural softer water, in soft water in our aquariums. In my experience that approach is old school line of thinking, and is simply not factual. Many of these so called soft water fish do very well in a wide variable of water parameters, especially domestic strains, which is typically what we are discussing on these forums. This has been proven among millions of tanks, world-wide, including some of my own. Many of the sick fish that we see such as Oscars etc, are products of poor husbandry, not poor water chemistry, as in GH/pH.


I think that to simply rule a species out, due to some dogmatic approach is doing a great disservice to the hobby. As an example of a blackwater species that tends to do very well in a wide variety of water conditions, Thomas Weidner, who literally wrote the book on South American Eartheaters, and in his book South American Eartheaters, states; "A hardness up to 20 dGH and alkaline water (up to pH 8.0) will not prevent G. sp. Tapajos Orange Head from breeding successfully, and this species does not seem to be particularly susceptible to the skin lesions that commonly occur in Geophagus in harder water."

My real-world experience with this species, and many other local hobbyists that I know with near identical tap water, mirrors that comment from Weidner. I know that neutrino neutrino has experience with this same species, and non-blackwater conditions. So, if/when I see the odd OH Tapajos that has an issue with HITH, I look beyond the water hardness and/or pH values, and closer at what else is going on with the fish, and the tank.

Stress comes in many forms, and IMO MFK should be promoting the proper care of water (as in low bacteria count via frequent water changes, and regular filter maintenance) and low stress from aggression, crowding, tank size, etc. ----------- instead of simply throwing out the baby with the bath water, because (gasp) it might be slightly more challenging.

I would like to see a list of known species posted, species that via first hand experience, are prone to health issues, even when otherwise kept in otherwise low stress, and pristine water quality. I can think of several off the top of my head, as I'm sure others can. A list that everyone could see, and understand moving forward the potential risks involved.

I would also like to see a list of species from these soft water areas where the fish seem to be perfectly fine in harder water, and higher pH values, such as domestic discus, and domestic angelfish, even some of the wild species actually do very well in hard water with higher pH, it depends on the species, and the collection point.

Now that I think could be very educational for those that may consider keeping some of these species, in their local tap water.

Some fish raised and kept for several years in local hard tap water, and pH of 8.0 No tweaking or addition of anything, other than adding Seachem Safe during water changes. IME this is the norm in these parts, not the exception.

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