Feedin cichlids koi food?

[Aquanero]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Q2PNHIi5qRAIbR7_A&sig2=0YMadLjuDMzgqoqfpgBa7Q


This is good basic information on the general workings of koi food. Summer v winter formulations etc. While a high quality summer formulation may be fine short term a winter or general all season formula is not the best choice for warm water fish which metabolise food differently. Read and compare ingredients carefully. You don't want cheap at the expense of quality. The fish could be ingesting too much fat etc, excreting too much waste subsequently producing too much ammonia and overburdening the bio capacity of the system, ultimately decreasing water quality and increasing maintenance. In the long run it may cost more. This is not to say you can't just pointing out the possible pitfalls associated with choosing the incorrect formulation. HTH.

 

[neutrino]

Some good replies above. Your choice but, personally, I wouldn't do it. Just because someone says I feed this or that unconventional diet and my fish are doing great doesn't always guarantee anything. It's easy to think they're doing ok and not anticipate the long term health issues or recognize the connection when they occur. Did you catch the following in the Tetra pond article linked above?

Carbohydrates are primarily used as an energy source by fish (containing around 17.2kJ gross energy
per gram), although many species are limited in their ability to use them. Koi are better at using carbohydrate than most fish species, as they possess high levels of special enzymes (amylases) that are used to break them down. Therefore, some carbohydrates of good quality and in balanced quantities in a koi diet provide a useful supply of energy. Too much, or the 'wrong' type of carbohydrates will cause problems such as damage to the liver.

So koi can get by on ingredients not suited to all fish. It's a little like cats and dogs, one can eat the other's food on occasion without much problem, but they have different nutritional needs and their foods are formulated differently. Research why one can't eat the other's food exclusively and you find out a cat on a dog food diet will end up with serious nutritional deficiencies. Little different with dogs eating cat food, but too much of it can cause them weight issues. Either way, you wouldn't see the health issues immediately, making it easy to miss the connection to diet.

There are ingredients in fish food that different types can tolerate at different levels. Soy is a good example, in some fish it causes intestinal inflammation or causes problems in combination with other ingredients. (My personal preference is I don't feed cichlids a food with soy as an ingredient.)

 

[RD.]

Bingo!

Take a look at the ingredient list, and nutritional break down of Tetra's Vibrance Koi "summer" food.

Feeding Guide: Feed at least two or three times daily only as much food as your fish will consume within a few minutes. Below 50°F feed TetraPond Wheat Germ Sticks. They should not be fed below 39°F.
Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein min 31.0% Crude Fat min 5.0%
Crude Fiber max 2.0% Moisture max 7.0%
Phosphorus min 1.1% Ascorbic Acid
(Vitamin C) min 100 mg/kg

Ingredients: Wheat Starch, Fish Meal, Corn Flour, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Feeding Oat Meal, Wheat Gluten, Wheat Germ Meal, Potato Protein, Monobasic Calcium Phosphate, Soybean Oil, Ascorbic Acid (source of Vitamin C), Riboflavin-5-Phosphate, Inositol, Niacin, A-Tocopherol-Acetate, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (Stabilized Vitamin C), D-Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin A Palmitate, Cyanocobalamin, Cholecalciferol, Manganese Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Cobalt Sulfate, Artificial Colors, Ethoxyquin (as a preservative).



As just stated so well by neutrino, koi digest food in a different manner (they don't have stomachs) using different levels of gastrointestinal enzymes, compared to most cichlids. Cichlids aren't hard wired to eat pancakes. (wheat, corn, soybeans, oats, potato, soybean oil, etc

 

[ahud]

At the risk of sounding dramatic, knowing the basics of fish food really changed the products I buy for myself! I don't buy grape jelly that does not have grapes for example. Sounds like common sense, but its amazing what the most popular brands actually have in them. Chalk it up to great marketing and uninformed consumers.

I think the best method is to spend some time researching ingredients and how to read labels. Then you can apply that knowledge to any food.

 

[Southjerseycichlidz]

At the risk of sounding dramatic, knowing the basics of fish food really changed the products I buy for myself! I don't buy grape jelly that does not have grapes for example. Sounds like common sense, but its amazing what the most popular brands actually have in them. Chalk it up to great marketing and uninformed consumers.

I think the best method is to spend some time researching ingredients and how to read labels. Then you can apply that knowledge to any food.

Yea deffinetly I just asked to see what people think I was shocked that the hakari cichlid growth has less than the normal CICHLID pellets then saw so koi food with even higher protien percentage then both cichlid foods

 

[neutrino]

Hikari's not my favorite. Don't like the ingredient list of most of their products. But as far as protein numbers:

Again, it's about the ingredients, including the source of protein, not just the raw protein #s. It's easy to bump up protein % with cheap, hard to digest ingredients that are essentially waste products of other industries. For example, feather meal (an ingredient in some fish foods and a by product of the poultry industry) is @ 80% protein, but a good source of protein for fish?

Not my fish:
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa122

the nutritional value of the protein relates directly to its amino acid composition and digestibility.
...
Proteins in cereal grains and other plant concentrates do not contain complete amino acid profiles and usually are deficient in the essential amino acids lysine and methionine.
...
The quality of different feedstuffs is greatly dependant on the amino acid profile in their proteins, digestibility of the proteins, freshness of the raw materials, and their storage. Plant-based proteins, even when properly processed, are usually not as digestible as fishmeal; and their inclusion rate into the diet is often limited as it results in depressed growth rates and feed intake.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa144

Protein is typically the most costly nutrient in a formulated feed. (one of the reasons producers keep looking for cheaper alterrnatives)
...
Using Ideal Proteins in Aquaculture Feeds: Feeding Excess Protein Is Not Acceptable
Feeds which are typically formulated with an excess of protein are usually due to one of two reasons: either the protein is not very digestible so more has to be added to meet amino acid requirements, or excess protein is added because specific essential amino acid requirements are not known.

A synopsis: Protein in fish food is expensive. Cheap, alternative protein sources are often nutritionally deficient or not as digestible. More protein, whether in excess of what's actually required or from a poorer source, equals more ammonia. Better to have less protein of higher quality than to attempt to compensate for lesser ingredients or low amounts of a particular amino acid by bumping up total protein by adding more of the cheaper ingredients.