flakes or pellets

[Aquanero]

I did pellets with my larger chiclids. But I would mix some bloodworms, beef heart, and some veggies in their diet so they don't get unhealthy from eating the same thing. My flower horn developed a problem because she was just being fed pellets. Mix it up for the fish to be completely healthy!


Sent from my iPhone using MonsterAquariaNetwork app

I would like to know what pellets were being used and what type of problems were noticed?

 

[4D3]

Genuine customer service is dying in America. Many places will recommend anything to you if it makes them a sale. I drive pass two fish stores to get to the store I like because they aren't pushy and will make good recommendations on my setup, fish stock and food needs.


Sent from my iPad using MonsterAquariaNetwork app

I live in Australia, but I'm British, since I move here I have been shocked at how lacking a country can be for customer service!

Varying from sickly fake patronising niceness, to down right rudeness with no in between.

New Life is on my short list also.

Less starch and grain ingredients than some other popular foods, nice balance of ingredients, garlic in all their products (which has benefits to health and growth). Krill and fish meal (and other aquatic protein sources) are better sources of protein than foods that include a high % of grain/starch/by product (like distillers grain) as protein sources-- my opinion, based on the aquaculture science reading I've done (an example here) and my own food testing. Generally speaking such aquatic sources of protein are going to be better balanced in terms of amino acid profile and digestibility than most of the non-aquatic substitutes.

Ok I'm sold on new life spectrum!

Sent from my Evo 3D GSM using MonsterAquariaNetwork App

 

[Mythic Figment]

Do you have proof your fh had issues from being fed just pellets?? And do you have any proof that "mixing" it up is healthier???

All these are only fed pellets (NLS)....
View attachment 900513View attachment 900515View attachment 900516View attachment 900517


Sent from my iPhone using MonsterAquariaNetwork app

There is very little proof to be had in this hobby. What works for someone will fail for someone else. And individual fish can have pre-existing conditions that can be brought out in different ways that other fish will not have or have a different variant of the condition.

It is likely the pellet in question was a poor quality food. Even if it wasn't, it is a good idea to vary the diet of your fish. This can provide them with additional nutrients pellets don't have or can simply be used as treats. Pellets are great "in between" food. Not a lot of the green and not a lot of the protein (compared to a leaf of lettuce or a prawn). Having days of just some green veggies or just some bloodworms, brine shrimp, etc, can give additional nutrients to your fish that pellets don't have or don't have enough of. Having said that, there is nothing wrong with just feeding pellets. Fish can still survive just fine on pellets alone.

NLS is pretty much top of the line as far I can gather from others. Haven't tried it myself, but will be using it soon enough.


Sent from my iPad using MonsterAquariaNetwork app

 

[Vilardz3190]

My flowerhorn had developed whole in the head and was constipated a lot all the time. I cured the constipation by giving her epsom salt baths. The whole in the head I has to use API meds in. I read somewhere that chiclids sometimes develop same diet syndrome don't even know if that's a correct term or not. But nonetheless I started giving them more bloodworms and beef heart weekly as well as more greens such as lettuce peas and string beans. Had no more issues after that


Sent from my iPhone using MonsterAquariaNetwork app

 

[tomomothy]

Not sure about FHs but I've been keeping CA and SA cichlids for years and never heard of same diet syndrome. Sounds like something that an insufficient diet might contribute to but not if the pellets used as a staple meet all of the cichlids dietary needs. I never encountered that problem feeding with hikari or nls. I had an Oscar that had HITH but that was due to poor water quality and i believe further fueled by low quality carbon media in my sump

Sent from over there

 

[Mythic Figment]

My flowerhorn had developed whole in the head and was constipated a lot all the time. I cured the constipation by giving her epsom salt baths. The whole in the head I has to use API meds in. I read somewhere that chiclids sometimes develop same diet syndrome don't even know if that's a correct term or not. But nonetheless I started giving them more bloodworms and beef heart weekly as well as more greens such as lettuce peas and string beans. Had no more issues after that


Sent from my iPhone using MonsterAquariaNetwork app

I am not entirely sure for fish, but in marine mammals there are genetic markers for digestible enzymes that cause a widespread negative reaction when encountered in the digestive tract. They are very similar to allergies in the majority of land mammals. I would make the assumption that fish would have something very similar, if not the same, due to the closeness of their natural habitat conditions.

Another explanation may lie in evolution. Evolution can take place over the course of a single generation. However, the changes made in a single generation will be very small. For instance, the change you might see in aquarium bred fish is highly likely to be in the digestive tract or the gills. If you received wild caught or F1-2 generation fish, a varied diet is highly recommended as their genetics will still be geared toward their natural environment where they are opportunists who eat whatever they can get ahold of to survive. Too much starches, byproduct, etc might not agree with their system and cause a "clog". If you have a F3+ generation fish whose parents and grandparents were fed a staple of mostly or entirely pellets, they are less likely to need the wider variety as their system may very well have gone through a few "tweaks" to allow for more starches, byproduct and other things they would never have encountered in the wild.


Sent from my iPad using MonsterAquariaNetwork app

 

[RD.]

Variety is not a nutrient.

You can feed a fish all the variety that you want, and still be feeding a diet that is lacking in certain key nutrients, and/or the proper balance of nutrients. At the same time one could feed a single food, made from a 'wide variety' of high quality easily digestible raw ingredients, and never encounter so much as a single health issue in the lifetime of their fish.

Feed a poor quality food, and you'll have poor results. Flowerhorns don't just up & get sick from eating pellets, at least not quality pellets.



The very fact that most fish are opportunists that eat whatever they can get ahold of is a prime example of the amount of dietary plasticity that is found in many wild populations of fish.

I discussed intestinal plasticity in the following past thread on "bloat".

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?456034-Bloat-Causes-Cures-and-BIG-Myths

For decades Tropheus keepers felt that due to the intestinal length & long digestive process in that species, it should only be fed low protein "green" food, and that any amount of animal based protein could cause bloat. Yet science has proven that in captive bred species of Tropheus the intestinal length can be half of what's found in wild specimens.

"Intestinal prolongation, although indicative of specialization on diets with low nutritional value, such as those of epilithic algae and detritus, has been shown to be highly plastic (Sturmbauer et al.1992). In Tropheus moorii the intestinal length of domestic fish measured only 50% of the length found in wild individuals (Sturmbauer et al. 1992)."


A more recent study that was published in 2009 demonstrates just how great intestinal plasticity can be in response to the diet quality of various species of fish found in Lake Tanganyika.

http://limnology.wisc.edu/personnel..._Functional-Ecology-LT-cichlid-gut-length.pdf

The above paper clearly demonstrates just how adaptive wild Rift Lake cichlids can be when it comes to their diet. As long as one feeds a quality food, diet will generally be a non issue, and will not cause any type of major gastrointestinal stress. These fish were born to adapt.

A friend of mine spent several months working for the late Stuart Grant on Lake Malawi & one of his daily responsibilities was feeding the thousands of wild caught fish each day. Those wild fish that were all freshly plucked from the the lake were fed bulk commercial flake food, which were mostly comprised of fish meal & starch. Some of these wild fish were also maintained long term on this diet in display tanks. He never saw a single dietary issue in any of the fish while he was there, and that included fish classified as carnivores, omnivores, and strict herbivores. They all ate the exact same food.


I'm certainly not saying that one can't, or shouldn't offer various natural food stuffs as supplements, but it has been proven time & time again that a high quality premium pellet can on its own can keep most species of fish thriving in captivity, not just surviving. Most of the so called natural live/fresh/frozen foods that we offer fish in captivity are nutritionally speaking nothing like what they would encounter and consume in the wild.

Lastly, there are beneficial substances which exist in 'processed' foods, that aren't found in the live foods found in many cichlids natural habitats.

Immune stimulants, growth promoting substances, etc, have been found in a number of feed stuffs of animal origin designed for aquaculture use, such as fish meal, squid meal, garlic, etc. Nutritionists know that these substances are present, but even with today's science some of these substances have yet to even be identified, let alone studied enough to know exactly how they work.

So it's not always as cut & dry as natural or live is better than commercial foods. There's two sides to the coin.

 

[neutrino]

In many years I've never exactly heard the term 'same diet syndrome', but I can understand how someone would come up with it. But I think it's misleading to the extent that it suggests a consistent diet is a problem in itself. Lot of fish and animals have the 'same diet' without any 'syndrome' because they're getting enough of the nutrients they need from whatever it is they consistently eat, even when it might be a single, very specific food source-- like bamboo for pandas or plankton or krill for large filter feeding marine animals. There's also a possible pitfall in some things you might feed for variety if you inadvertently create a bad combination (example below).

Scientifically speaking, a classic pitfall is to make an observation but, without sufficient information, to misinterpret what's been observed. Simple example is the ancients who observed the sun to appear to circle the earth and stars appear to move in the night, while the earth felt or appeared stationary, and conclude the earth is at the center of the cosmos. Since most hobbyists are not ichtyologists or microbiologists I think we fall prey to doing this, because so often don't realize how complex some of the actual science really is.

For example, it can be something as simple or unsuspected by most as soy in fish food in many of its forms or feeding peas when your fish food has soybean meal in it, that can cause intestinal inflammation in your fish for reasons you might never guess at.

 

[4D3]

just tried to get NLS from amazon and as per usual Amazon dont ship out to Australia!

what are views on New Era CA/SA Cichlid foods, i can find that readily

 

[RD.]

NLS can be purchased from both brick & mortar as well as online vendors that are based in AU. No need to order from Amazon.

http://www.tqtf.com.au/

If you need further assistance use the contact info and tell them that RD sent you. I know the owner well. He can direct you to online vendors based in AU.

As far as new Era foods ........

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?526563-New-Era-fish-pellets-thoughts


HTH