Losing fish (Geophagus Sveni) but can't figure out why... water OK, temp OK. Don't know what to do.

[neutrino]

Hmm, I read your reply twice and I still have no idea how to test the tank for this. I'll look into it. I don't disagree with your observation, but with only feeding them once per day I guess I'm not sure how I could have done that. I did give them a decent amount of food, because I figured they were young and active and needed it. Would multiple smaller feedings per day be better? I've kept fish for a while and never had an issue like this. Also, geez... I thought Hikari was one of the best foods. There's such inconsistent guidance and information in this hobby! Why exactly don't you like Hikari foods?

People have different theories on feeding frequency. As far as I'm concerned there's not really a one-size-fits-all-fish answer, because what's better for adults vs young, growing juvies, larger predators vs grazers, etc. can vary. In any case, what's more important than feeding frequency is total feed intake and I control it by not allowing my fish to develop overgrown bellies. If I start to see it I back off feeding. Back in my Malawi cichlid days I'd even move an individual fish to another tank and put them on a 'diet' for a while, because they were too fast gobbling up food among their tankmates and getting a bulging belly. But it often seems to work feeding flakes or reducing pellet size to limit how fast any one fish can consume more than everyone else in the tank. I learned a long time ago that letting it persist or go too far can lead to issues.

HIkari has its fans and I'm not saying that's the main issue. Primarily, I don't like their ingredients, way too much cheap stuff in it. I figured out a long time ago there are better options in that respect, especially after doing some long term, side by side, same species, multi-tank testing... well, everyone has their opinions on food and this is just one more. But, for example, looking at Cichlid Gold, after fish meal the next 7 ingredients on their list are: wheat flour, flaked corn, brewers dried yeast, corn gluten meal, wheat starch, rice bran. So that's 7 to 1, with an awful lot of starchy, grain based, or similar items. Imo it's like feeding a fish flavored cracker. Compare to others like New Life Spectrum, Northfin, Fluval Bug Bites, etc.

 

[Milingu]

In addition to what neutrino said: cichlids have a stomach like a bagpipe. The oesophagus and the exit towards the intestine are directly next to each other on the top of the stomach. Therefore if overfed with the wrong food the exit can get totally blocked, which leads to a quick death.

 

[krelltunez]

People have different theories on feeding frequency. As far as I'm concerned there's not really a one-size-fits-all-fish answer, because what's better for adults vs young, growing juvies, larger predators vs grazers, etc. can vary. In any case, what's more important than feeding frequency is total feed intake and I control it by not allowing my fish to develop overgrown bellies. If I start to see it I back off feeding. Back in my Malawi cichlid days I'd even move an individual fish to another tank and put them on a 'diet' for a while, because they were too fast gobbling up food among their tankmates and getting a bulging belly. But it often seems to work feeding flakes or reducing pellet size to limit how fast any one fish can consume more than everyone else in the tank. I learned a long time ago that letting it persist or go too far can lead to issues.

HIkari has its fans and I'm not saying that's the main issue. Primarily, I don't like their ingredients, way too much cheap stuff in it. I figured out a long time ago there are better options in that respect, especially after doing some long term, side by side, same species, multi-tank testing... well, everyone has their opinions on food and this is just one more. But, for example, looking at Cichlid Gold, after fish meal the next 7 ingredients on their list are: wheat flour, flaked corn, brewers dried yeast, corn gluten meal, wheat starch, rice bran. So that's 7 to 1, with an awful lot of starchy, grain based, or similar items. Imo it's like feeding a fish flavored cracker. Compare to others like New Life Spectrum, Northfin, Fluval Bug Bites, etc.

In addition to what neutrino said: cichlids have a stomach like a bagpipe. The oesophagus and the exit towards the intestine are directly next to each other on the top of the stomach. Therefore if overfed with the wrong food the exit can get totally blocked, which leads to a quick death.

Thank you both!

I picked up some Bug Bites and I already have some NLS pellets. I'll stay away from Hikari going forward, and will make sure I'm not feeding too much.

I will replace the Geos and learn from my mistakes. I'm still so sad that this happened, and even moreso knowing I may have caused it.

 

[danotaylor]

The problem with pellets that high in grain fillers is they absorb so much moisture. When the fish gulp them down whole and they don’t have opportunity to soften a little they can block the gut with a big dry wad of food. The moisture content of the pellets is relevant to prevent this. Leaving the jar open causes pellets to dry out & lose moisture, further potentiating problems.
I used to be so OCD with my tropheus that I would soak the food in tank water until it was soft before feeding

 

[Krackar]

Hmm, I read your reply twice and I still have no idea how to test the tank for this. I'll look into it.

Sorry about that, I've got an electrical work background and may not have explained it very well. Definitely doesn't sound like its your issue though.

 

[krelltunez]

The problem with pellets that high in grain fillers is they absorb so much moisture. When the fish gulp them down whole and they don’t have opportunity to soften a little they can block the gut with a big dry wad of food. The moisture content of the pellets is relevant to prevent this. Leaving the jar open causes pellets to dry out & lose moisture, further potentiating problems.
I used to be so OCD with my tropheus that I would soak the food in tank water until it was soft before feeding

I read (on this forum) that pre-soaking pellets can result in loss of nutrients. Is that accurate? The NLS pellets are tiny (much smaller than the smallest Hikari pellets), but I could still crush them I suppose. Unfortunately, all my Geos have died so for right now I only have Dusky Narrow Hatchetfish.

I'm going to talk to the store owner where I got the Geos, but will likely replace them and try again (this time being extremely careful about feeding).

Could that really be what happened here? Only time will tell, I guess. I still feel so bad about this, as I think of myself as a skilled fish keeper.

 

[Sinister-Kisses]

I think a lot of the problems that could come from not pre-soaking pellets and risking them swelling up after already in the gut/digestive tract, you can help to minimize by simply using a smaller pellet size. I find a lot of people feed a much larger size pellet than they really need to, so if it's already oversized going in, it definitely could be a problem once it's been swallowed.

Higher quality pellets won't puff up as much as lower quality ones full of fillers anyway, so removing Hikari from their diet is already a big step in helping that. I'm 100% one of those people who are of the opinion that Hikari foods are absolute garbage and would never feed it to my fish, personally.

 

[danotaylor]

not sure about nutrient loss. I guess if you let the pellets disintegrate maybe, but if the moisture is moving inwards not sure how nutrients could be lost outwards but like I mentioned “I used to be ocd” about it and no longer practice that method as I honestly believe bloat in tropheus has more to do with poor water quality than anything else.
Did you try putting some charcoal in your filter when you were experiencing the losses? Perhaps some unknown contaminant got into the water the geos were sensitive to? Less likely since everything else survived though