Mahseer, Tor, and Neolissochilus at Fish Story

[Luke tomkinson]

cool agressive?? could it go with a fly river turtle??

 

[MatteoTheEnder22]

cool agressive?? could it go with a fly river turtle??

Maybe but I'm not the right person to ask i haven't own either of them but im planning on getting a mahseer this summer so thats that you should ask some of the more experience mahseer keepers

 

[Asian Exotics]

blue mahseer and they get around 20” inches

Hey there, bro. Actually, they do get significantly bigger than that if you're referring to Stracheyi (they probably max out at 3 feet). For the Thai Tor version where some hobbyists/sellers in South East Asia also calls them Thai blue mahseer or Mekong Thai blue mahseer, they can get even more so bigger, more than 4 feet. But all those are rare and really difficult to find. And the other difficult part is transportation. I have enquired on many large specimens, but most won't want to risk delivery due to their previous bad experiences in handling large specimens. I had to seek help from the usual logistic providers to my company (other cargoes, non animals) to arrange as they have among the largest fleet of trucks in this region.

 

[MatteoTheEnder22]

Hey there, bro. Actually, they do get significantly bigger than that if you're referring to Stracheyi (they probably max out at 3 feet). For the Thai Tor version where some hobbyists/sellers in South East Asia also calls them Thai blue mahseer or Mekong Thai blue mahseer, they can get even more so bigger, more than 4 feet. But all those are rare and really difficult to find. And the other difficult part is transportation. I have enquired on many large specimens, but most won't want to risk delivery due to their previous bad experiences in handling large specimens. I had to seek help from the usual logistic providers to my company (other cargoes, non animals) to arrange as they have among the largest fleet of trucks in this region.

Yeah i was talking about the one you could for 20 bucks but then again im a noob at mahseers sooo yeah

 

[thebiggerthebetter]

Thank you guys for your enthusiastic input.

Matteo, Luke, may I, please, humbly request creating your own thread for your mahseer questions and if you wanted my 2 cents, tag me, please.
While I am for minimizing the number of threads, I am on the other hand for keeping them clean and on topic. It is not always easy to judge this though, I agree.

Viktor! Pleasure stumbling on this thread. Sad to see you have some bad luck with some of your mahseer . Everything else looks great!

Thank you, Mike! Your mahseer gang has been thriving and growing, praise the Lord! (Same for dats.) You are so rarely on MFK these days. Hope to see more of you some time. We need your expertise... but at your convenience haha...

 

[shookONES]

I was hoping to have paid a visit by now, but given the state of things, looks like it’ll be a while still! Life’s been hectic these past few months, thus the absence, but I’m here for good now! In the interim, don’t get shy with updates. The mahseer and Julliens carp are personal favorites in your incredible collection.

 

[Asian Exotics]

Thank you for that, except I don't know which fish you are referring to.

If the OP fish, then are you challenging the Tor douronensis ID of Antzzom Lee from YouTube?

If the small recent acquisition from Rapps, then are you challenging its ID as Tor douronensis?

Or both?

Please be clear and not so curt as to the point of confusing me. I am confused enough and the mahseer wretched state of taxonomy is not helping either...

Hi there Viktor, hope all is good. I am afraid GiantFishKeeper101 may also be correct. I'll explain the 'also be' part soon. I finally took possession of my first monster of a mahseer. Two of them actually. I was getting more impatient with the ever extending border closing, so, I began actively searching for possible large Stracheyi blue mahseers locally. Interestingly, I was offered the same fish I've seen in pictures for sale but wasn't interested in then. The owner contacted me to ask if I would be interested to purchase his prized fishes due to financial issues, probably a victim of the global lockdown economic effect.

The 'also be correct' part here is that I have observed that the scale colouration, lateral line and almost everything are identical. The only exception are the body parts/features that tells Tor genus from Neolissochilus genus.

You can see from the picture their heads quite clearly says Tor. I have noted that they also have mental lobes, although not too visible and pronounced lips, other Tor features. This picture was taken at the seller's tank. Both fishes are sold as Mekong Tor mahseer and are now in a fiberglass quarantine tank in my house. I'll take more pictures once they are in my tank after the tank is done up and quarantine period is over.

Being sold as Mekong Tor, I was searching all over the internet for more information on habitat so I'd know better how to take care of them. I found nothing at all. As if this fish never existed whether in Mekong or any part of Thailand. I then asked anyone with any information at all to the real place or river of origin cuz I have checked and almost all literature says main body of river Mekong is probably devoid of mahseer. Only the tributaries has them and tributaries from Thailand to Mekong would unlikely have any Tor mahseer too.

For a few short days, I was living in my own delusional world when I had this theory where the only reason I cannot find any info is that these fishes are Tor Ater (the newly discovered and rare species), which seemed plausible as while there aren't any pictures of T. Ater, the descriptions checks out. Big (I am aware someone else in the country bought a 45 inch specimen), very dark colour to almost black, fins are very dark blue to almost black, short mental lobe, concave snout and Tor Ater also has a lateral line. It does look that way when it was first brought into the country.

I thought I have hit jackpot. It was short lived after common sense kicked in. Since it's almost impossible to find any information, why not just ask someone who knows a lot about these fishes in Thailand.

I did that and also at the same time found myself a really good deal for some nice blue Stracheyi mahseer. All I need to do now is either wait slightly longer and fly to Chiang Mai, where I believe the most gorgeous Stracheyi could be from or just trust the local trader there (whom btw is super friendly and if my deal works out fugupuff can also have an alternative option to purchase those amazing fish-porn standard Stracheyi).

Anyway, according to the local Chiang Mai trader, he confirms that there are indeed a Neo version and a Tor version of identical looking Thai blue Mahseer. These Neo and Tor versions are also found in river Mekong as well as river Salween where he is trading from. I know the local name for the Neo version is Pla Puang, and the nice gentleman then tells me the Tor version is called Pla Jao, but usually everyone just calls them pla puang out of convenience. But the Tor version is just the same as other Tors in that area as in they can grow huge and specimens above 5 feet isn't unheard of. While the Neo would struggle to get above 3 feet.

So, is your Thai blue/golden mahseer Douronensis, purely judging from the head, perhaps not, but now I know there is an identical Tor version that looks slim n mean that may be Douronensis and it can get seriously huge. And they are super duper powerful jumpers, I had to use so much weight to cover the quarantine tank, anymore, the tank itself will collapse. No one will be called silly to suspect a crocodile is actually inside the fully covered quarantine tank.

I'm not sure if this is news or they are old news and I'm making myself a fool here, but if I'm a fool, I am a happy one cuz I already fell in love with my latest purchase. Just can't wait to have them in the tank. And at the same time, respecting the reason why they are so powerful, I would work on a mega tank (my standards, not your standard, thebiggerthebetter .....8x8 footprint at least. Only God knows how many digits your version of mega tank is ? ) as soon as I sort out the financial mess the pandemic brought on to my business.

The pair in the quarantine tank, the best thing that happened to me during this health crisis.

 

[thebiggerthebetter]

Thank you much for this educational and entertaining read even though my head is spinning I don't think I can construct the big picture, that is how many species there are and how to tell them apart, especially some of them.

My initial posts indicate about 16 mahseer species of interest, that is tor and neolissochilus...

* * * * *

According to this nice site: http://www.fly-fishing-in-thailand.com/the-fish.html ... There are 14 major Mahseer species under the Tor Genus and two under the Neolissochilus Genus:

Humpback Mahseer - Hypselobarbus mussullah (also called Tor mussullah)
Semah Mahseer - Tor douronensis
Thai Mahseer - Tor Tambroides
Deccan Mahseer - Tor khudree
Malabar mahseer - Tor khudree malabaricus
Golden Mahseer - Tor putitora
Soro Mahseer - Tor tambra
Chinese Mahseer or Mekong Red Mahseer - Tor sinensis
Dark Mahseer - Tor chelynoides
Blue Mahseer - Tor Neilli
Redfin Mahseer - Tor tor
Mosal Mahseer or Copper Mahseer - Tor mosal
Jungha Mahseer - Tor progenius
Zhobi mahseer - Tor zhobensis (also called Naziritor zhobensis)
Chocolate mahseer (also called Copper Mahseer) - Neolissochilus hexagonolepis
Stracheyi Mahseer - Neolissochilus stracheyi (also called Tor stracheyi)

(There are more species in the Tor and Neolissochilus Genus but most of them are very small species and not of any interest for the fly fisherman.)


* * * * *

Here is the classification from Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahseer:

• Tor ater, Roberts, 1999
• Tor barakae, Arunkumar & Basudha, 2003, Barakae mahseer
• Tor douronensis, Valenciennes, 1842, khela mahseer or river carp
• Tor hemispinus, Chen & Chu, 1985
• Tor kulkarnii, Menon, 1992, Dwarf mahseer uncertain only one specimen found till now.
• Tor khudree, Sykes, 1839, Black mahseer, Deccan mahseer
• Tor laterivittatus, Zhou & Cui, 1996
• Tor macrolepis, Heckel, 1838, uncertain species
• Tor malabaricus, Jerdon, 1849, Malabar mahseer
• Tor mussullah, Sykes, 1839, Hump Back mahseer
• Tor polylepis, Zhou & Cui, 1996
• Tor progeneius, McClelland, 1839, Jungha mahseer
• Tor putitora, Hamilton, 1822, Himalayan mahseer or Golden mahseer
• Tor qiaojiensis, Wu, 1977
• Tor remadevii, Madhusoodana Kurup & Radhakrishnan, 2011
• Tor sinensis, Wu, 1977, Chinese mahseer
• Tor soro, Valenciennes, 1842
• Tor tambra, Valenciennes, 1842
• Tor tambroides, Bleeker, 1854, Malayan mahsheer
• Tor tor, Hamilton, 1822, Red-finned mahseer, Short-gilled mahseer or Deep-bodied mahseer
• Tor yingjiangensis, Chen & Yang, 2004
• Tor yunnanensis, (Wang, Zhuang & Gao, 1982)
• Neolissochilus baoshanensis, (Chen & Yang, 1999)
• Neolissochilus benasi, (Pellegrin & Chevey, 1936)
• Neolissochilus blythii, (Day, 1870)
• Neolissochilus compressus, (Day, 1870)
• Neolissochilus dukai, (Day, 1878)
• Neolissochilus hendersoni, (Herre, 1940)
• Neolissochilus heterostomus, (Chen & Yang, 1999)
• Neolissochilus hexagonolepsis, (McClelland, 1839), Chocolate mahseer
• Neolissochilus hexastichus, (McClelland, 1839), Brown mahseer
• Neolissochilus longipinnis, (Weber & de Beaufort, 1916)
• Neolissochilus namlenensis, (Nguyen & Doan, 1969)
• Neolissochilus nigrovittatus, (Boulenger, 1893)
• Neolissochilus paucisquamatus, (Smith, 1945)
• Neolissochilus soroides, (Duncker, 1904)
• Neolissochilus spinulosus, (McClelland, 1845)
• Neolissochilus stevensonii, (Day, 1870)
• Neolissochilus stracheyi, (Day, 1871)
• Neolissochilus subterraneus, Vidthayanon & Kottelat, 2003
• Neolissochilus sumatranus, (Weber & de Beaufort, 1916)
• Neolissochilus theinemanni, (Ahl, 1933)
• Neolissochilus tweediei, (Herre & Myers, 1937)
• Neolissochilus vittatus, (Smith, 1945)
• Naziritor zhobensis, Mirza, 1967, Balochi mahseer

* * * * *

The current state of mahseer taxonomy is messy.

GFK101 says tambra, tambroides, and douronensis are the same.

IDK where the soroides comes in.

Now you are saying there are almost indistinguishable-looking neo and tor, both stracheyi...

Jibran aka headbanger says Tor putitora and Tor tor are the same or indistinguishable if I got him right and also khudree and malabaricus are (hardly) different, which agrees with my observation.

Some say, I forget who, there are pretty much only 5 species / types of mahseer...

* * * * *

If I believe the vendor ID, as they are cited, I currently have and can provide pics of:

Tor progenius (Wesley Wong) 24"
Tor soro (Wesley Wong) 20"
Tor malabaricus (Wesley Wong) 1x 20" and (Mike Shookones) 2x 8"
Tor khudree (Wesley Wong) 24" (recently passed away)
Tor putitora (3x Wesley Wong and 1x Mike Shookones) 4x, 10"-24"
Tor tambra (Mike Shookones) 2x 10"
Thai gold mahseer (Tor douronensis?) (from Ivan Awesome) 18"
Tor douronensis (Jeff Rapps) 8"
Tor sinensis (1x Wesley Wong, tall bodied, and 1x Mike Shookones) 2x 14"
Tor tambroides (Mike Shookones) 2x 7"
Neolissochilus stracheyi (Ivan Awesome) 22"
Neolissochilus benasi (Mike Shookones) 10"; one more passed away at 7" (from Wesley Wong)
Neolissochilus holandii (Taiwan mahseer) (Mike Shookones) 7"

Out of these, I'm quite unsure about the ID of the
soro
Thai gold (douronensis?)
douronensis
tambroides

The rest are a bit more distinguashable in my eyes that I am more confident in their ID, albeit several I am not positive about.

* * * * *

People that can help with the mahseer ID off the top of my head are: fugupuff Wesley Wong, shookONES Mike, GiantFishKeeper101 , kendragon Ken, headbanger_jib Jibran, Asian Exotics Cy, that is you

* * * * *

In my opinion, if we are to try and start making some sense of the mahseer conundrum, we need to be very clear and support our word description with good photographs so that all can see what is being said in words. Also drawings can be used, GiantFishKeeper101 is pretty good at that.

 

[Asian Exotics]

Now you are saying there are almost indistinguishable-looking neo and tor, both stracheyi...

Oops, I apologise, I forgot to add in a link by National Geographic Thailand which the local Chiang Mai trader provide. It's only in Thai though, but here goes :

ปลาพลวง ที่เห็นตามน้ำตก ได้รับการขนานนามจากวิทยาศาสตร์ว่า เสือโคร่งแห่งสายน้ำ

ปลาพลวง อาจจะเป็นปลาที่คนไทยส่วนใหญ่รู้จักเพียงว่าเป็นปลาที่อาศัยอยู่ตามน้ำตก รอคอยกินถั่วฝักยาวหรืออาหารปลาที่นักท่องเที่ยวโยนลงไปให้

ngthai.com

I used Google translate to make sense of the article. Although there are still many left to imagine due to the translation but I picked out the part that seem to support his opinion most :

ของปลาน้ำจืดเกือบทุกชนิด จูลีบอกว่า เธอรู้สึกแปลกใจมากที่ปลาเวียนตัวนี้มีสีและลายเหมือนกับปลาพลวงในลำน้ำจนแทบแยกไม่ออก จากประสบการณ์ที่ผ่านมา เขาไม่เคยเห็นปลาในสกุล Tor และ Neolissochilus มีสีเหมือนกันมาก่อน

Google translated version will be :

Julie said that she was surprised that the circling fish has the same color and pattern as antimony fish in the river, almost indistinguishable. From past experience He has never seen fish in the genus Tor and Neolissochilus. Have the same color before


I am trying to order some Stracheyi mahseers from him and will post more detailed pics of differences and similarities between this Tor & Neo version of Stracheyi

 

[GiantFishKeeper101]

I'm assume we be talking about Tor sp. here...

thebiggerthebetter I won't bother classified it even further other than dna test, these masheers are complex species. They can have different morphological traits even in the same stretch of river.

Asian Exotics through my observation, the "Tor Mekong" have what is used to be "tambroides traits", larger lips, longer medium lobe, slender body, etc. But these "tambroides traits" also exist in West Javan mahseers, both of em have lateral lines like a sinensis but certain specimen have extreme dual colored on the top & bottom body. The only difference between the 2 are colors, Javan are red, Mekong are blue.

West Javan mahseer:

SEA mahseers (Tor sp) are a pain in the ass. Not worth pay attention to lol. They're distinguishable by region colors but unreliable on body shape. Although thais do have red & blue mahseer, Malaysia also have both, Indonesia also have both. This is the most f#&@ up (pardon my french) fish to observed/studied to

But between Tor & Neo, they have distinguishable features. Neos have hooked fins, Tors doesn't. Tors have high dorsal scales, Neos doesn't