The goldfish in pond all come out anytime people are around to beg for food. I agree they are not 'personable' like some of my other fish (stingrays etc) but my goldfish act the same as the koi in my freind's pond.
Mixing Koi and Goldfish?
- Thread starter wow_it_esploded
- Start date
Are you kidding me? You are an MFK and bring up these arguments?Wow.
How about some bullheads? Goldfish can also get quite "tame", just not as much as koi.
Ok Sorry I'm late but goldfish fanatic is here. First i no longer keep goldfish or kois reason moved house to apt recession hit hard. Anyways I've kept both kois and all species of goldfishes and bred both kois and goldfishes. All Goldfish and kois can be tame and will eat out of your hands. Though goldies takes more time and patience. I'd reccomend Ranchu's and lionheads they are the easiest to tame and they will run up to you and eat out of your hand and let you pet it and pick it out of the water if you'd like. They are better than kois with bigger personalities. A 400gal pond is too small for a koi in all honesty. Sure you can house juvenile kois or young kois for a 2yr max period. But I highly don't reccomend it.
And Azedenkae reason it's not good is because in a small pond such as 600gal the kois will be stunted. Average growth of kois from tosai to nisai meaning juv under one yr old koi to 3 yr old koi is dramatic. first yr should reach 14-18" plus thats a happy healthy koi. 2nd yr 24-26" some hitting 28-30" which are considered jumbo. then 3rd yr hits and they start hitting 26-30" and the jumbos start hitting 30-36+". Stunting a koi can result in deformities, bent spine...etc.
And Azedenkae reason it's not good is because in a small pond such as 600gal the kois will be stunted. Average growth of kois from tosai to nisai meaning juv under one yr old koi to 3 yr old koi is dramatic. first yr should reach 14-18" plus thats a happy healthy koi. 2nd yr 24-26" some hitting 28-30" which are considered jumbo. then 3rd yr hits and they start hitting 26-30" and the jumbos start hitting 30-36+". Stunting a koi can result in deformities, bent spine...etc.
I am quite aware of what stunting is and how it happens. This pond is rather large, despite the volume, because it is built like a... staircase? I guess. It's stepped laterally, so what it doesn't have in volume it has in space. I'll get some pics to show what I mean. The more I think about it, the more I am coming to terms with my inability to house even a single koi in the pond... disappointing for sure, but such is life.
As far as fancy goldfish go (ranchus, lionheads, etc), what is max size + growth rate on those? The pond is obviously outdoors all year long, and I live in south texas so 105º days in the summer, and 30-40º days in the winter (most of winter is >50º though). I am totally okay with power feeding in the summer, and the water is around 80º-ish (I know it's toasty, our previous goldfish never really had an issue with that though...).
If fancies are particularly sensitive to warmer waters (we've always had comets..) I do not have an issue with doing daily water changes with our 60º tap.
As far as fancy goldfish go (ranchus, lionheads, etc), what is max size + growth rate on those? The pond is obviously outdoors all year long, and I live in south texas so 105º days in the summer, and 30-40º days in the winter (most of winter is >50º though). I am totally okay with power feeding in the summer, and the water is around 80º-ish (I know it's toasty, our previous goldfish never really had an issue with that though...).
If fancies are particularly sensitive to warmer waters (we've always had comets..) I do not have an issue with doing daily water changes with our 60º tap.
Well, I now understand why I am unable to "growout" koi to add to my 150' spring fed farm pond large enough so that the Blue Herons would not eat them.
Lost every koi very quickly stocked in the farm pond to LMB or the resident Blue Herons. Even the feeder comet goldfish that grew to large for feeders for the LMB (14"+) are still easy pickin's for the Herons. They like to leave the fist sized head at the bank of the pond.
Over a year in the 40G growout and only one platinum Ogun has over doubled from the ~ 2" to 4"+. No other Koi have increased their size by over 50% in the year. I keep the water parameters 0,0 & <40.
Same result with the Golden Orfs. Little to no growth (2" - 3") after 1+ year in a 125 growout. Have never lost a Koi from the 40G Breeder growout, and only lost one of eight Orfs (Jumped out of 125).
So by messing up and thinking I could growout Koi in a 40 breeder to be stocked into (I don't know say 1,000,000 gallon spring fed pond) I have now permanently stunted them and can do nothing?
Can I now keep all of them for life in the 40 G since they will not exceed 4" in their lives?
Lost every koi very quickly stocked in the farm pond to LMB or the resident Blue Herons. Even the feeder comet goldfish that grew to large for feeders for the LMB (14"+) are still easy pickin's for the Herons. They like to leave the fist sized head at the bank of the pond.
Over a year in the 40G growout and only one platinum Ogun has over doubled from the ~ 2" to 4"+. No other Koi have increased their size by over 50% in the year. I keep the water parameters 0,0 & <40.
Same result with the Golden Orfs. Little to no growth (2" - 3") after 1+ year in a 125 growout. Have never lost a Koi from the 40G Breeder growout, and only lost one of eight Orfs (Jumped out of 125).
So by messing up and thinking I could growout Koi in a 40 breeder to be stocked into (I don't know say 1,000,000 gallon spring fed pond) I have now permanently stunted them and can do nothing?
Can I now keep all of them for life in the 40 G since they will not exceed 4" in their lives?
That's one huge pond good lord that's a lake. Such a large body of water how deep the herons shouldn't be able to touch them maybe a few that lingers the shallow end maybe. But 1,000,000 gal it's less likely a heron can get to them.
As for "growout" 40g breeder is definately ok for 2"-4" kois have used 50-60 gal fiberglassed tanks for growing out tosais. Produce the similar results as a bigger ponds definately not as dramatic maybe .5 -1" difference but none the less it works as a growout. Just make sure you accomedate to their size, meaning transfer them to bigger growout holding tanks/ponds as they get bigger. From 2" to 4" in a yr that is stunting them a bit. But it's not to say they can't grow anymore and will remain 4" for life. Put them in a larger holding tank or pond. 1000 gal lets say and they should even though stunted they will grow if given the space. They probably won't grow to their potential size but none the less they should get to a decent size. Still young. Goldfish however is different and can be kept in a 40gal longer as they don't grow as big as kois. As for ORFE's I really don't have much experience with the fish species so I can't say all I know is they do get pretty big and look like big minnow goldfishes.
If the pond is about 150' and herons are still able to get em then It's probably not deep enough. Should be 5-8ft deep for that size of a pond. Possibly deeper even. You can rig nets or lines above and across the pond to prevent predators from attacking your pond and their are motion sensor sprinklers that work great too.
As with most cold water fishes the warmer the water the more oxygen you will need to provide. Also with warmer water they will eat more hence crap more therefore a heavy duty filteration setup is needed. Also by providing shade the temp should drop as well. I've kept my fancies in the temps of 80 but with a tremendous amount of oxygen never had any problems. UV sterilizer is a must to prevent algae bloom. Fancies get pretty big but grow quite slowly and are stunted in most hobbiest care. They can get up to 12inches and some bigger. Most average 6-8 inches. As for winter they should be ok depending on depth and size of pond. But in your case I'd reccomend transfering them indoors for the winter. Common goldies are the easiest to care for and probably the most sturdy. THey can endure higher and lower water temps better and don't grow as fast nor as big as kois. Overall the common goldies are great for small outdoor ponds. So ranking 1 for easy and 5 as hard in reference to care wise (common goldfish = 1) (Koi = 3) (Fancies = 4). Fancies are a bit more delicate than the other two. Try not to over stock as you will have health issues like ulcers in spring.
You could try a Butterfly Koi. The largest butterfly I have seen was just under 28 inches long in a 15,000 gallon pond. The largest standard fin koi in the same pond was a Chagoi that was a little over 40 inches! I don't think the Butterfly Koi get quite as large as the standard fin Koi (at least not that I have seen).
Another option is the Wakin & Watonai. These are Japanese goldfish (think Comet body, but with a split tail), get 12 to 15 inches, and have a more come forward personality that regular Goldfish. A great breeder that sells these is www.raingarden.us/goldfish.htm.
Also if you decide to put a Koi in the pond, I would stick with either Comets, Shubunkins, Wakins, or Watonais as the fancy goldies would be out-competed for food by the much faster swimming Koi. I have also heard of Koi bullying fancy goldfish as well.
Hope this helps!
Another option is the Wakin & Watonai. These are Japanese goldfish (think Comet body, but with a split tail), get 12 to 15 inches, and have a more come forward personality that regular Goldfish. A great breeder that sells these is www.raingarden.us/goldfish.htm.
Also if you decide to put a Koi in the pond, I would stick with either Comets, Shubunkins, Wakins, or Watonais as the fancy goldies would be out-competed for food by the much faster swimming Koi. I have also heard of Koi bullying fancy goldfish as well.
Hope this helps!
If you do try to mix koi and goldfish together, make sure the koi isn't a lot bigger than the goldfish. I have a friend with a huge pond in his back yard with about 6 18inch koi. Someone gave his about 20 medium comet goldfish for his arrowana but he doesn't feed it live fish. Anyways, he decided to release them into his pond. 1 minute later, 6 fat koi and no more goldfish.
