Plant only filtration (why not popular in the hobby???)

[albertjavieraguilar]

Doing away with waterchanges has been mentioned several times in this thread. It's a part of the hobby. Live with it.
I do every two weeks because I have large carnivorous fish that are still growing and I want them to reach their maximum potential. Good food and clean water are the best ways to do this. If I didn't have three kids and tons of activities on the weekends and evenings I'd be doing the water changes every week.
I'm not saying that adding plants can't reduce the amount of water changes, but it will never do away with them. Plants just don't remove everything.

James,
Everyone is entitled to there opinion. However, if your opinion is different than someone you are not entitled to insult them and call them cough potatoes. If you have information that indicates the you must do a 40% water change every 2 weeks (or as you imply every week) or the fish are damaged due to excess hormones it would be great if you attach a link or research that indicates this. Thanks
I personally do very few water changes and greatly enjoy having a small aquatic environment that i can observe in my living space.

 

[JamesF]

I wasn't insulting anyone albert. Just stating my opinion, that if your sole purpose in this hobby is to get out of water changes, you should find a hobby more suited to you, like being a couch potato. Aquariums require work. It's part of the hobby and what connects us to our fish. If you just want to look at fish, turn on the TV or hire a maintenance company to do your water changes.
Here's a link to fish producing hormones that affect growth.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/g847j314711153k0/
Most of the ones you'll find are pubmed articles, so they aren't available to the average person.

 

[Rivermud]

I wasn't insulting anyone albert. Just stating my opinion, that if your sole purpose in this hobby is to get out of water changes, you should find a hobby more suited to you, like being a couch potato. Aquariums require work. It's part of the hobby and what connects us to our fish. If you just want to look at fish, turn on the TV or hire a maintenance company to do your water changes.
Here's a link to fish producing hormones that affect growth.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/g847j314711153k0/
Most of the ones you'll find are pubmed articles, so they aren't available to the average person.

It isn't hormones, rather pheromones and it doesn't occur in all fish. It also does not affect fish of other species in the way it affect fish of the same species. The study you linked was specific to that breed. Many species do not exhibit this behavior including catfish. Aquaponics systems don't do water changes unless needed by one of the trigger factors (measurable toxins) and raise very healthy and large fish for consumption.

Like I stated earlier, I am not advocating 0 water changes. People need to tend to their tanks and keep up with them, it works that way for every far flung part of the hobby. Each just has their own way of addressing the issues given them.

 

[aquaponicpaw]

It isn't hormones, rather pheromones and it doesn't occur in all fish. It also does not affect fish of other species in the way it affect fish of the same species. The study you linked was specific to that breed. Many species do not exhibit this behavior including catfish. Aquaponics systems don't do water changes unless needed by one of the trigger factors (measurable toxins) and raise very healthy and large fish for consumption.

Like I stated earlier, I am not advocating 0 water changes. People need to tend to their tanks and keep up with them, it works that way for every far flung part of the hobby. Each just has their own way of addressing the issues given them.

Very well said!

 

[JamesF]

That's interesting that you mention catfish not produce growth stunting pheromones Rivermud. I read an article years ago that said that many catfish species produced the strongest growth stunting pheromones. I wish I could find it again.

 

[albertjavieraguilar]

I wasn't insulting anyone albert. Just stating my opinion, that if your sole purpose in this hobby is to get out of water changes, you should find a hobby more suited to you, like being a couch potato. Aquariums require work. It's part of the hobby and what connects us to our fish. If you just want to look at fish, turn on the TV or hire a maintenance company to do your water changes.
Here's a link to fish producing hormones that affect growth.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/g847j314711153k0/
Most of the ones you'll find are pubmed articles, so they aren't available to the average person.

Thanks for the link. Using you logic If you want to have fish get rid of the three kids and tons of activities and do your water changes like you say you should or hire a maintenance company to do water changes.

Rivermud, I share your thoughts. I have learned a lot from this tread and hope to continue to do so.

 

[Rivermud]

This thread is being derailed a little bit with this discussion. I feel however that some of this information is pertinent so I will make this one last (hopefully) post on the subject.

Pheromones are known to be employed by many fish species for a great many reasons. Things like spawning, flight/flee, migration, and sexual development have been linked to pheromones. These are classified as releasers and primers; though that may cause confusion as some work as both.

Now that we've loosely defined what happens we need to understand how they work. Stimuli drive the fish to create and release these pheromones, the flight/flee pheromone is a prime example. In terms of stunting growth in fish water quality is a greater determining factor. Even with water changes pheromones would still be present and would be re-released if the need for the pheromone is still present. The fact that a pheromone can be released fast enough for a flight or flee message leads me to believe that changing the tanks water would have little to no effect on the pheromone concentrations present. Another take on the discussion involves overpopulation induced stunting. This may very well occur due to pheromone releasers in species like sunfish where populations can explode without predation/harvest. In these populations if proper harvesting is introduced the stunting naturally corrects itself. If (IMHO) it were due ONLY to pheromones the issue would not self resolve until the compounds of the pheromone broke down naturally. This also leads me to believe these pheromones are only released to a desired level for the desired effect...

On the outside of this discussion is proper diet and water quality. Both of these have been proven causes for issues with fish health. So, while there may be conjecture in the hobby regarding pheromones and "build-up", if we look to nature we can see the causal relationships for the pheromones in the first place. I would also put forth that these pheromones help to balance out your tank in that dominant and sub members of specific species develop that way as part of natural selection. Helping to set boundaries, sexual behavior, shoaling, etc. all of which are normal and healthy.

for further reading you may wish to consult: http://www.carpbusters.com/documents/Sorensen_Stacey%5B1%5D.2004.NZJfinal.pdf

 

[JamesF]

You have an illogical sense of logic albert.
Good post rivermud. I really wish I could find the article I read. It was about 15 years ago, and was about chemicals released by catfish when they were in dense populations that stunted the growth of the group. The chemicals weren't released continuously, only when population densities reached a certain point. I can't remember if it was triggered by pheromones, or some other signal. I can't even remember which catfish they were talking about.
Anyway, my whole point of the conversation was just to point out to people that adding plants doesn't magically get rid of the need for water changes. This has been mentioned through here several times. It will reduce nitrates, phosphate, potassium, and other trace minerals, but in no way will remove everything that is harmful in a tank. Only by removing water and replacing it, or getting some of the new filter medias that are starting to target other compounds will you ever do that.
Now, back to the plant filters.

 

[fwiffo]

ive always had lots of plants in my tanks. i dotn add nothing to the water nor do i have really great lighting. i just use fluorescents, just one strip light. and the plants (swords and anubias) thrive in my tanks. fish seem to like them too for grazing, which is good as the plants grow that way. i guess the plants get their nutrition from fish waste and food in the water and sand. so i guess plants are good for an aquarium and help keep the tank clean. i might add a light strip though and get two running. thatd be nice.

 

[fwiffo]

and you the original posters aqurium filtration setupo with a false back wall hiding lots of plants somehow reminds me of the mattenfilters used in germany. here's a link to the old threads:

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forum...56-HMF-Mattenfilter-lots-of-pictures-and-FAQs

they used lots of plants too if you observe the aquariums.