What does anybody know about this product?
On Plywood? Toxic fumes when uncured? Acetone cleanup? MEK cleanup?
Thankx in advance...Zennz
On Plywood? Toxic fumes when uncured? Acetone cleanup? MEK cleanup?
Thankx in advance...Zennz
Pond Armor
- Thread starter zennzzo
- Start date
Hi Guys,
I'll reply to this this afternoon. Pretty busy here today and have to get through my current work load. I appreciate the thread waiting.
Butch
Pond Armor
www.pondarmor.com
800-716-1545
I'll reply to this this afternoon. Pretty busy here today and have to get through my current work load. I appreciate the thread waiting.
Butch
Pond Armor
www.pondarmor.com
800-716-1545
Concur, a compairison of the two would be a good start. So far the methods of sealing Ive heard for plywood/concrete tanks are:
1. Fiberglass/epoxy (primarily for plywood)
2. Drylock
3. Sanitred
4. PVC sheeting
5. Acrylic sheeting
and now Pond Armor/Shield
( Rhino liner and pond liners have been used also but IMO I would not consider them a for professional quality job.)
1. Fiberglass/epoxy (primarily for plywood)
2. Drylock
3. Sanitred
4. PVC sheeting
5. Acrylic sheeting
and now Pond Armor/Shield
( Rhino liner and pond liners have been used also but IMO I would not consider them a for professional quality job.)
Hi,
Lets see where do I start?
You know I want to be as informative as possible, but I also do not want to re-type my whole web site into a post. That kind of defeats the purpose of me having any of you visit my web site. So, I will copy my comments from another thread to here in order to consolidate them and then Ill add to it. After that if anyone has anymore questions, please reply to this post and I will gladly answer them for you.
Post #1
First, Pond Shield is not like West Systems epoxy. It is very different even at its core. Fir instance, Pond Shield is a non toxic epoxy and is even tested in its mixed uncured state to be sure. This means if anyone with too much zeal decides to fill their pond or tank up prior to the coating curing properly, their fish and plants will still be safe. After Pond Shield has cured, it will NOT leech off anything into your water. Some epoxies will do this and some of that material can be toxic too. Pond Shield is not. Your statement says Pond Shield is thinner like West Systems. This is just not true. Our black Pond Shield is 45,000 cps in viscosity. It happens to be the thickest we manufacture where the clear pond Shield is 15,000 cps. A lot more viscous that West Systems epoxy.
You also say that with Pond Shield very small holes or anything over a small hairline crack has to be specially treated. Again, not so. When Pond Shield is squeegeed on the surface area, it is like thousands of tiny fingers that grab hold. With a tensile bond strength that literally exceeds the internal strength of concrete, one would not have to worry about delaminating problems that latexes or rubbers can go through. In fact Pond Shield can easily bridge gaps 1/4 inch wide and with larger cracks, Pond Shield can be used to stitch the concrete back together. For instance, a larger crack can be V'd out and cleaned. Pond Shield can be then applied to the crack and it will serve as a stitch. The elongation break strength is rated at 9,500 psi. Most hairline cracks form at below 6,000 psi which means Pond Shield is designed to not mimic the formation of new hairline cracks.
You mention that Pond Shield can blush but offered no reason as to why this happens. Allow me to clarify. A blush is caused when moisture is allowed to settle of an uncured coating. The chemical change that takes place during this process will not harm the coating but instead, discolor it. A blush can easily be fixed and those steps to fix it can be found on our web site. The best way to deal with a blush though, is to avoid it by following the instructions you get with your Pond Shield. It's that simple. From my experience, the only time I ever hear about blushes, is when someone applied Pond Shield as the temperature was dropping and the dew point was rising. This usually happens later in the evening. Covering up your project is a simple but effective way of avoiding this.
Corners and joints need to be reinforced with fiberglass tape ONLY in certain circumstances. These circumstances are when the joint in the structure YOU provide is weak and prone to additional shifting because of poor structural integrity. For instance, the use of wood in a tank or pond is fine but if your corner joints are just screwed together without additional support, they may be weak. Also, if in the use of concrete you intend to utilize an existing piece of concrete along with newly poured concrete, that cold joint will be prone to movement. Each of these needs to be dealt with on a case by case basis.
Pond Shield can be flexed and can withstand a certain amount of flex all the way down to -78 degrees. (perfect for the changes that can take place during freeze/thaw cycles) What you have to remember is that unlike rubbers or latexes, epoxies are designed for strength. Therefore, if your construction is sounds and the integrity is strong, your Pond Shield coating will reflect that. However if you have a structure that wiggles around all of the time you'll always have issues. Don't be fooled for a minute thinking that a completely flexible material will not eventually fail under the stresses of constant movement.
Post #2
JohnPTC - Thanks for letting me use your images. It's always nice to show people a fresh new way to use something - that you have done well.
Jovial - Apples and Oranges. Pond Shield is an epoxy where Sanitred is a rubber. Everything has positives and negatives, but I can tell you that when we designed Pond Shield, we looked at what we considered every product on the market and adjusted our formulation as needed in order to compensate for their weaknesses. We contacted many different installers and communications with them allowed us to really dig deep into what troubles them about their choices of materials to be used as coating and what materials they preferred to use as structural bases. We combined all of that with what typical users were looking for in a coating and the end result was Pond Shield. We designed this product two decades ago but utilized it in a more industrialized state. This redesigning of it was to bring it into a more user friendly state so that anyone could use it successfully.
MilitantPotato/Jovial - Yes it can be used on plywood or acrylic. Mind my very first post in this thread though. Your tank/pond is only going to be as good as the structural integrity that you build into it. If you build a flimsy box ANY material will finally delaminate because of movement. Build a strong structure and it will serve you well. I cannot begin to tell you how many people I have heard say, "You know in the North East, we just dont build concrete ponds because they flex too much and crack." The only problem there is the construction. It's as simple as that. If concrete were such a lousy medium to use in the North East, then why are all of those buildings and highways constructed with the material? You see what I mean? Those buildings and highways are constructed properly which is why they last and have so few problems. I have seen my fair share of funky construction methods and it simply amazes me how someone could go thorough all of that trouble, just to half-ass the main body of their project and hope that the remaining accoutrements will solve all of their problems. Build smart.
Zennzzo - Yes Pond Shield is tested in it's mixed uncured state for toxicity and is non toxic. Does that mean you should go out and spoon a bunch of it onto some bread and have lunch? No It means that if you apply your coating with such zeal that you start filling the pond/tank up prior to it curing completely, your fish would be fine. I have actually had a customer call and ask me about his pond, only to discover that he did a portion of his coating on his waterfall with the fish and water still in it.
Dr. Joe - I am one of the owners of Pond Armor. Have been so since our corporation formed two + decades ago. Yes I figured you grabbed some info from the web site which is why I made the out of context comment. I'm glad you understood my intentions I will post later today into the threads you mention. Thanks for the invite.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Jovial Doing a comparison of each of the products you listed is like comparing apples to oranges to bananas. Each product has different properties. Some are prone to peeling because they just do not have the bond strength needed to hold. Pond Shiled has a tensile bond strength that exceeds the internal strength of concrete. That means if you try to take Pond Shield off, the concrete will break away first. It also has an elongation break strength of 9,500 psi like stated above which means Pond Shield is designed to not mimic hairline cracking. Again, I cannot stress enough the importance of making sure your construction is solid. That is not for the benefit of the waterproofing agent you plan to use, but because proper construction will save you time and money in the long run. You wont be repairing your project because of something you should have dealt with at stage one.
You also have to determine the type of product for your situation. Pond Shield is an epoxy and it best used on solid structured ponds/tanks. Pond Shield-FSP is a Polyurea that can be used when the structure is not completely solid of there is not structure at all. For example, in the case where you might build a pond by digging a hole Pond Shield-FSP can be sprayed in and become the liner. If youre doing something on a larger scale, like any agricultural project (ie: watering large amounts of cattle) then Pond Shield-FSP is the proper coating for that as well. You had mentioned Rhino coatings, which essential is a type of Polyurea. I would venture to say that if the job did not look professional, it is most likely due to the application rather than the material. If done properly, Pond Shield-FSP will have a very professional appearance and also give you many years of service. Speaking of years of service, Pond Shield epoxy can give you 25+ years of service as long as the surface area was properly prepared and the coating properly applied.
Pond Shield epoxy does not require primers, sealers or bases like almost any other product, which in turn saves you cash. It is a stand alone product.
There are two things we always recommend with concrete. First is that you let them cure properly (which in most cases is 28 days hybrid concretes can usually cure in about 7 days but the cost is some times 4-5 times more than normal concrete). This curing process which is known as hydrating is essential. During this time you can significantly increase the strength of your concrete simply by keeping the concrete wet. This will help the concrete retain moisture which keeps the concrete from shrinking. Shrinking causes cracks and cracks are weaknesses. I have heard of people trying to dry their concrete quicker and this is usually due to being impatient. Drying it quicker will lead to that lack of moisture and again cracks. Also, this hydration process will push calcium deposits towards the surface. This is normal. These deposits can sometimes be seen and other times cannot. What they both have in common is that they are not concrete and eventually will fall off. Those that remain should be acid etched (the second thing we recommend) off before ANY coating is applied. The reason for this is simple. If you apply Pond Shield to concrete that has calcium deposits on it, Pond Shield will bond to them just like concrete. The problem is when they fall off, Pond Shield will go with it, just as would any coating. Lets say you acid etched and coated prior to the end of the hydration process. You most definitely can run into to future problems again because just because you cleaned those calcium deposits off doesnt mean the hydration process has stopped. This means that any new calcium deposits that form can and will push your coating off. Your best bet is to be patient and do the project right. Dont take short cuts and dont skip steps.
I could type all night but I think its best to start here and wait to see if any of you have any more questions. Ill try and answer them as quickly as possible. You can call me or email me as well. Look for my information at the bottom of any of my posts.
By the way if any of you are interested in how you can coat your pond with Pond Shield for FREE, email me or call me and Ill be happy to explain. In the next few days youll also be able to find out by visiting our web site as well. The only caveat is that Id like to hear from you if youre interested. I do not want to post any more about that program here so that I can avoid turning this thread into a marketing item. Id rather this be an informational thread.
Thanks
Butch
Pond Armor
www.pondarmor.com
butch@pondarmor.com
800-716-1545
Lets see where do I start?
You know I want to be as informative as possible, but I also do not want to re-type my whole web site into a post. That kind of defeats the purpose of me having any of you visit my web site. So, I will copy my comments from another thread to here in order to consolidate them and then Ill add to it. After that if anyone has anymore questions, please reply to this post and I will gladly answer them for you.Post #1
First, Pond Shield is not like West Systems epoxy. It is very different even at its core. Fir instance, Pond Shield is a non toxic epoxy and is even tested in its mixed uncured state to be sure. This means if anyone with too much zeal decides to fill their pond or tank up prior to the coating curing properly, their fish and plants will still be safe. After Pond Shield has cured, it will NOT leech off anything into your water. Some epoxies will do this and some of that material can be toxic too. Pond Shield is not. Your statement says Pond Shield is thinner like West Systems. This is just not true. Our black Pond Shield is 45,000 cps in viscosity. It happens to be the thickest we manufacture where the clear pond Shield is 15,000 cps. A lot more viscous that West Systems epoxy.
You also say that with Pond Shield very small holes or anything over a small hairline crack has to be specially treated. Again, not so. When Pond Shield is squeegeed on the surface area, it is like thousands of tiny fingers that grab hold. With a tensile bond strength that literally exceeds the internal strength of concrete, one would not have to worry about delaminating problems that latexes or rubbers can go through. In fact Pond Shield can easily bridge gaps 1/4 inch wide and with larger cracks, Pond Shield can be used to stitch the concrete back together. For instance, a larger crack can be V'd out and cleaned. Pond Shield can be then applied to the crack and it will serve as a stitch. The elongation break strength is rated at 9,500 psi. Most hairline cracks form at below 6,000 psi which means Pond Shield is designed to not mimic the formation of new hairline cracks.
You mention that Pond Shield can blush but offered no reason as to why this happens. Allow me to clarify. A blush is caused when moisture is allowed to settle of an uncured coating. The chemical change that takes place during this process will not harm the coating but instead, discolor it. A blush can easily be fixed and those steps to fix it can be found on our web site. The best way to deal with a blush though, is to avoid it by following the instructions you get with your Pond Shield. It's that simple. From my experience, the only time I ever hear about blushes, is when someone applied Pond Shield as the temperature was dropping and the dew point was rising. This usually happens later in the evening. Covering up your project is a simple but effective way of avoiding this.
Corners and joints need to be reinforced with fiberglass tape ONLY in certain circumstances. These circumstances are when the joint in the structure YOU provide is weak and prone to additional shifting because of poor structural integrity. For instance, the use of wood in a tank or pond is fine but if your corner joints are just screwed together without additional support, they may be weak. Also, if in the use of concrete you intend to utilize an existing piece of concrete along with newly poured concrete, that cold joint will be prone to movement. Each of these needs to be dealt with on a case by case basis.
Pond Shield can be flexed and can withstand a certain amount of flex all the way down to -78 degrees. (perfect for the changes that can take place during freeze/thaw cycles) What you have to remember is that unlike rubbers or latexes, epoxies are designed for strength. Therefore, if your construction is sounds and the integrity is strong, your Pond Shield coating will reflect that. However if you have a structure that wiggles around all of the time you'll always have issues. Don't be fooled for a minute thinking that a completely flexible material will not eventually fail under the stresses of constant movement.
Post #2
JohnPTC - Thanks for letting me use your images. It's always nice to show people a fresh new way to use something - that you have done well.
Jovial - Apples and Oranges. Pond Shield is an epoxy where Sanitred is a rubber. Everything has positives and negatives, but I can tell you that when we designed Pond Shield, we looked at what we considered every product on the market and adjusted our formulation as needed in order to compensate for their weaknesses. We contacted many different installers and communications with them allowed us to really dig deep into what troubles them about their choices of materials to be used as coating and what materials they preferred to use as structural bases. We combined all of that with what typical users were looking for in a coating and the end result was Pond Shield. We designed this product two decades ago but utilized it in a more industrialized state. This redesigning of it was to bring it into a more user friendly state so that anyone could use it successfully.
MilitantPotato/Jovial - Yes it can be used on plywood or acrylic. Mind my very first post in this thread though. Your tank/pond is only going to be as good as the structural integrity that you build into it. If you build a flimsy box ANY material will finally delaminate because of movement. Build a strong structure and it will serve you well. I cannot begin to tell you how many people I have heard say, "You know in the North East, we just dont build concrete ponds because they flex too much and crack." The only problem there is the construction. It's as simple as that. If concrete were such a lousy medium to use in the North East, then why are all of those buildings and highways constructed with the material? You see what I mean? Those buildings and highways are constructed properly which is why they last and have so few problems. I have seen my fair share of funky construction methods and it simply amazes me how someone could go thorough all of that trouble, just to half-ass the main body of their project and hope that the remaining accoutrements will solve all of their problems. Build smart.
Zennzzo - Yes Pond Shield is tested in it's mixed uncured state for toxicity and is non toxic. Does that mean you should go out and spoon a bunch of it onto some bread and have lunch? No It means that if you apply your coating with such zeal that you start filling the pond/tank up prior to it curing completely, your fish would be fine. I have actually had a customer call and ask me about his pond, only to discover that he did a portion of his coating on his waterfall with the fish and water still in it.
Dr. Joe - I am one of the owners of Pond Armor. Have been so since our corporation formed two + decades ago. Yes I figured you grabbed some info from the web site which is why I made the out of context comment. I'm glad you understood my intentions I will post later today into the threads you mention. Thanks for the invite.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Jovial Doing a comparison of each of the products you listed is like comparing apples to oranges to bananas. Each product has different properties. Some are prone to peeling because they just do not have the bond strength needed to hold. Pond Shiled has a tensile bond strength that exceeds the internal strength of concrete. That means if you try to take Pond Shield off, the concrete will break away first. It also has an elongation break strength of 9,500 psi like stated above which means Pond Shield is designed to not mimic hairline cracking. Again, I cannot stress enough the importance of making sure your construction is solid. That is not for the benefit of the waterproofing agent you plan to use, but because proper construction will save you time and money in the long run. You wont be repairing your project because of something you should have dealt with at stage one.
You also have to determine the type of product for your situation. Pond Shield is an epoxy and it best used on solid structured ponds/tanks. Pond Shield-FSP is a Polyurea that can be used when the structure is not completely solid of there is not structure at all. For example, in the case where you might build a pond by digging a hole Pond Shield-FSP can be sprayed in and become the liner. If youre doing something on a larger scale, like any agricultural project (ie: watering large amounts of cattle) then Pond Shield-FSP is the proper coating for that as well. You had mentioned Rhino coatings, which essential is a type of Polyurea. I would venture to say that if the job did not look professional, it is most likely due to the application rather than the material. If done properly, Pond Shield-FSP will have a very professional appearance and also give you many years of service. Speaking of years of service, Pond Shield epoxy can give you 25+ years of service as long as the surface area was properly prepared and the coating properly applied.
Pond Shield epoxy does not require primers, sealers or bases like almost any other product, which in turn saves you cash. It is a stand alone product.
There are two things we always recommend with concrete. First is that you let them cure properly (which in most cases is 28 days hybrid concretes can usually cure in about 7 days but the cost is some times 4-5 times more than normal concrete). This curing process which is known as hydrating is essential. During this time you can significantly increase the strength of your concrete simply by keeping the concrete wet. This will help the concrete retain moisture which keeps the concrete from shrinking. Shrinking causes cracks and cracks are weaknesses. I have heard of people trying to dry their concrete quicker and this is usually due to being impatient. Drying it quicker will lead to that lack of moisture and again cracks. Also, this hydration process will push calcium deposits towards the surface. This is normal. These deposits can sometimes be seen and other times cannot. What they both have in common is that they are not concrete and eventually will fall off. Those that remain should be acid etched (the second thing we recommend) off before ANY coating is applied. The reason for this is simple. If you apply Pond Shield to concrete that has calcium deposits on it, Pond Shield will bond to them just like concrete. The problem is when they fall off, Pond Shield will go with it, just as would any coating. Lets say you acid etched and coated prior to the end of the hydration process. You most definitely can run into to future problems again because just because you cleaned those calcium deposits off doesnt mean the hydration process has stopped. This means that any new calcium deposits that form can and will push your coating off. Your best bet is to be patient and do the project right. Dont take short cuts and dont skip steps.
I could type all night but I think its best to start here and wait to see if any of you have any more questions. Ill try and answer them as quickly as possible. You can call me or email me as well. Look for my information at the bottom of any of my posts.
By the way if any of you are interested in how you can coat your pond with Pond Shield for FREE, email me or call me and Ill be happy to explain. In the next few days youll also be able to find out by visiting our web site as well. The only caveat is that Id like to hear from you if youre interested. I do not want to post any more about that program here so that I can avoid turning this thread into a marketing item. Id rather this be an informational thread.
Thanks
Butch
Pond Armor
www.pondarmor.com
butch@pondarmor.com
800-716-1545
yes, but keep a few things in mind.
1. SOLID construction - reinforcing to keep the structure from flexing and moving is always the best way to start.
2. We recommend using fiberglass tape on the seams as a way of increasing their over-all strength.
3. If you use plywood always picks the best grade you can and make sure it is an exterior grade as the glue used in those types is water resistant.
4. No matter what you do, seal the exterior properly with something as well. Wood can be like a sponge. Water being wicked into it from the outside can make wood swell and pop ANY coating off regardless of how well the coating can withstand hydrostatic pressures.
A trick I like to use with wood is to take a small portion of Pond Shield epoxy and thin* it a little with denatured alcohol (this will quickly evaporate and not leave and residual toxins in your coating). Then I take the thinned material and use it as a light wash on the wood. It will almost certainly soak completely into the wood. Then I apply Pond Shield epoxy as is over the top of that. That previously soaked in Pond Shield in conjunction with the final coating means your Pond Shield has gone that much deeper into the wood - hence an even better bond.
Butch
*thin about 30-40% Make sure to ONLY thin a small amount. This is to be used as a wash only. You do not have to go overboard with this method. For instance if I purchased a quart and a half kit, I would only thin about a 1/4 cup of the material to be used as a wash.
1. SOLID construction - reinforcing to keep the structure from flexing and moving is always the best way to start.
2. We recommend using fiberglass tape on the seams as a way of increasing their over-all strength.
3. If you use plywood always picks the best grade you can and make sure it is an exterior grade as the glue used in those types is water resistant.
4. No matter what you do, seal the exterior properly with something as well. Wood can be like a sponge. Water being wicked into it from the outside can make wood swell and pop ANY coating off regardless of how well the coating can withstand hydrostatic pressures.
A trick I like to use with wood is to take a small portion of Pond Shield epoxy and thin* it a little with denatured alcohol (this will quickly evaporate and not leave and residual toxins in your coating). Then I take the thinned material and use it as a light wash on the wood. It will almost certainly soak completely into the wood. Then I apply Pond Shield epoxy as is over the top of that. That previously soaked in Pond Shield in conjunction with the final coating means your Pond Shield has gone that much deeper into the wood - hence an even better bond.
Butch
*thin about 30-40% Make sure to ONLY thin a small amount. This is to be used as a wash only. You do not have to go overboard with this method. For instance if I purchased a quart and a half kit, I would only thin about a 1/4 cup of the material to be used as a wash.
It's my turn to be lazy...
Does pondarmor bond to itself after the first coat has cured? (ie paint inside corners one week then paint tank 2wks later (I lead a hectic lifestyle
)).
Dr Joe
.
Does pondarmor bond to itself after the first coat has cured? (ie paint inside corners one week then paint tank 2wks later (I lead a hectic lifestyle
)).Dr Joe
.
Thanks for taking the time to explain this Butch. The structure will be very stout and not subject to movement unless an earthquake takes place. I think its time for a compairison experiement to determine which is best.
Sanitred vs Pond Shield.
Sanitred vs Pond Shield.
Yes Pond Shield will bond to itself. If you coat within 24 hours, no additional prep is required, but if you wait longer, you should sand with 60-grit sandpaper, wipe clean and apply any additional material you had in mind.
Butch
Pond Armor
www.pondarmor.com
butch@pondarmor.com
800-716-1545
P.S. Jovial - call me tomorrow and I'll get your mailing info and send you off some free samples. <--- that goes for anyone wishing to try some out.
Butch
Pond Armor
www.pondarmor.com
butch@pondarmor.com
800-716-1545
P.S. Jovial - call me tomorrow and I'll get your mailing info and send you off some free samples. <--- that goes for anyone wishing to try some out.