Quartet of Hoplias lacerdae, green wolf fish, "Argentina"

[moe214]

Are you saying these may be not lacerdae in your opinion?

The ID is by the vendor, Wesley Wong, and stated in the thread title.

I can say with 100% certainty they aren't. Wes sold a lot of cf. lacs which just means related however he did label the first batches as lacs if memory serves me right. DB bought a few different types trying to get a true lac. I thought you were aware they weren't lacs.. true lacs are rare in the US. For awhile DB was the only one with one that reported much. It wasn't until recently where both wes and rapps got in some true lacs imo, however they labeled it wrong, as aimara from tapajos. Imo lacs are one of the easiest to ID because they're pattern and shape is so distinct. Only species with a similar shape is hoplias mbigua.

 

[thebiggerthebetter]

I can say with 100% certainty they aren't. Wes sold a lot of cf. lacs which just means related however he did label the first batches as lacs if memory serves me right. DB bought a few different types trying to get a true lac. I thought you were aware they weren't lacs.. true lacs are rare in the US. For awhile DB was the only one with one that reported much. It wasn't until recently where both wes and rapps got in some true lacs imo, however they labeled it wrong, as aimara from tapajos. Imo lacs are one of the easiest to ID because they're pattern and shape is so distinct. Only species with a similar shape is hoplias mbigua.

Thanks bro for the schooling. No, I didn't know mine were not lacerdae. You know I am as wolf-ignorant as they come.

If their dosal is positioned so uniquely, it would make them easy to ID (if known to taxonomy) I naively think.

DB, Sharptooth, might you have any thoughts as to my fish ID? @DB junkie @SharptoothBass

Who else is proficient with wolves?

 

[DB junkie]

Aren't the ones in this thread the "green eyes" from Wes?

I don't think anyones real good with Wolves, they are more of a buy and grow em out, theorize what you think you might have..... lol.

 

[moe214]

Thanks bro for the schooling. No, I didn't know mine were not lacerdae. You know I am as wolf-ignorant as they come.

If their dosal is positioned so uniquely, it would make them easy to ID (if known to taxonomy) I naively think.

DB, Sharptooth, might you have any thoughts as to my fish ID? @DB junkie @SharptoothBass

Who else is proficient with wolves?

As DB expressed, wolves need a lot of taxonomic work. And I would think the same but it is t described in any known species.

However there are plenty of species that can easily be identified. Such as aimara, curupira, australis is pretty easy, and lacs imo. Mbigua is pretty clear as well.

 

[thebiggerthebetter]

Aren't the ones in this thread the "green eyes" from Wes?

I don't think anyones real good with Wolves, they are more of a buy and grow em out, theorize what you think you might have..... lol.

@fugupuff

 

[dogofwar]

There's a recent publication laying out additional species in the H. malibaricus complex: https://www.researchgate.net/public...es_Erythrinidae_from_the_La_Plata_River_basin

The only person who I would trust to differentiate the Hoplias of Uruguay - H. lacerdae, H. malabaricus / H. cf. malibaricus and H. australis - was Felipe Cantera, who tragically passed a little over a year ago.

As color is quite variable based on a number of factors, the best indicators he used were 1) location where the fish were caught (some river systems had one or more species and others did not) and 2) the underside gills.

Here are his picture of:

H. lacerdae (parallel gills). Lacerdae are found further north in Uruguay.

H. australis:

and H. malabaricus (by the way cf. means sort of like H. malabaricus... but not exactly):

Here's a Hoplias that we caught last Dec near Maldonado, Uruguay (Laguna del Diario). Tried to get good pictures of the gills but it was hard. Everyone seems to think that it's H. lacerdae because it's green but I don't believe the range of H. lacerdae is that far south. H. cf. malabaricus? Probably.






Can't seem to upload a video of Pedro Lasnier, Felipe's good friend and our guide last trip, trying to show us the gills. There are no commercial fish exports from Uruguay and USFWS doesn't allow people to - legally - import Hoplias through Florida (they're not legal there), so unless folks are bringing them through other ports of entry and collecting them themselves, there aren't likely to be too many floating around. They're relatively common down there, though

 

[moe214]

The gill is used more so to tell you what family the fish is in. Either H. Mala or H. Lac. From there you can count pores and/or scales. Cf. means related, you have to put what species after. So cf doesn't mean specifically mala. Wes had put cf lac. Unless I'm just misunderstanding your post, dog.

H. Australis is pretty easy to ID with some underjaw shots. They almost always have a mean underbite. It's identifying mala that can be tricky. It's said to be multiple species under mala. In fact I think mbigua was. I remember me and Kno4te trying to help identify DB's, few days in I believe the publication for mbigua had came out and made our life easy. It has the shape of lac but tax traits closer to mala with mala pattern.

 

[dogofwar]

Correct - cf. in general isn't specific to to H. malabaricus. It's just used in this context to denote fish that are close to H. malabaricus but not exactly.

Here are a couple of side shots from Felipe showing H. lacerdae (top) and H. cf. malabaricus (below) (which are found together in some places):

Here's another shot (cf. mal on top and lacerdae below)

Here's H. australis (from Salto, Uruguay):

The gill is used more so to tell you what family the fish is in. Either H. Mala or H. Lac. From there you can count pores and/or scales. Cf. means related, you have to put what species after. So cf doesn't mean specifically mala. Wes had put cf lac. Unless I'm just misunderstanding your post, dog.

H. Australis is pretty easy to ID with some underjaw shots. They almost always have a mean underbite. It's identifying mala that can be tricky. It's said to be multiple species under mala. In fact I think mbigua was. I remember me and Kno4te trying to help identify DB's, few days in I believe the publication for mbigua had came out and made our life easy. It has the shape of lac but tax traits closer to mala with mala pattern.

 

[nzafi]

That greenish tint in the Lac pics is pretty awesome.

 

[justarn]

The first step is counting the pores on the lower jaw like this...
Lacs have 6+ on each side of the jaw plate
Australis 5
Mala 4
We (me, moe and kno4te ended up agreeing on 5 for mine pal.