Sanding and Buffing Acrylic

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it won't let me edit. Thought of some more questions... maybe it still seems hazy to me because I'm just giving up too soon... should I buff it a few more times? Like when you said "buff with #2 multiple times" did you mean you'd wipe it clean and restart it again? (New pad/cloth on the buffer each time?) Or just that you went over each spot repeatedly...

(btw, if you buffed for two hours, how did you not pass out from the fumes?)

When you say it should be like glue, does that mean that you were letting it sit and harden up a bit so it was more sticky/pasty than the liquid is at first?

Also, you mentioned throwing out the sandpaper. How much would you say you went through of each grit in that 8x2 pane of acrylic? Maybe I am not using enough. It basically turned the paper white after a stroke or two though.
 
Hey Dave I have to write a six page paper by midnight. I will answer all your questions as soon as I am done. I dont mean to be a pain or a slow down in your work, I just have to get this done before play time hahaha. I know exactly what you mean about football season over though. I am an Ohio State student so I still have basketball to look forward to.
 
Don't worry about it.

I'll trade you - come buff out my tank and I'll write your next round of papers....

Ohio State basketball just isn't as fun anymore now that Titus graduated...
 
DaveB;4885890; said:
Don't worry about it.

I'll trade you - come buff out my tank and I'll write your next round of papers....

Ohio State basketball just isn't as fun anymore now that Titus graduated...


Hahaha Titus.... The guy at the end of the bench hahaha.

Ill come out if you pay for that Tig lol.
 
DaveB;4885436; said:
I just went after it again. I pretty much can't tell any difference at all. Not sure what I'm doing wrong. There aren't really any deep scratches left, but the minor ones that I'd sand over would just end up pushing dust into them and turning them white, no matter how much pressure I put on them. I go over 600 with 1000 and still see the 600 strokes below it, then the same with 1500 over that, etc.
Right here you need to do 800 instead of jumping all the way up to 1,000. If you are still seeing marks from the lower grade after using the higher grade, you jumped up too fast.

No matter what there's always that light haze. This time around I was trying it with the 3M rubbing compound (I need to get more of the Novus) and as far as I can tell, it doesn't make any difference at all. My 6" hand buffer is 5000rpm though so maybe it's not any good.

It still looks fine with water in it (I poured some into it) but I guess I want it to be perfect, like you can't see a single sandpaper stroke or anything, if I go to all this effort. Maybe my standards are too high. Or maybe I'm just retarded.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vClDaX6ARM
There is a video of a good explanation on how I buffed. He puts it on thick and as its drying he will add a little bit more until he gets all of the polish off.

chrismadness;4885465; said:
any before and after pics?

I will try and see when what I have when I have a chance. I don't have the same phone as I did when I started doing the tank. I will for sure be able to get after pictures but I may just have to use a sample picture of a tank that is sanded so everyone can see how white it was.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_a3KUe9-R6Y

That video is a good example of what your tank will look like after getting done with your 1500 or 2000 grit. The Novus will take all of those scratches out.

DaveB;4885557; said:
it won't let me edit. Thought of some more questions... maybe it still seems hazy to me because I'm just giving up too soon... should I buff it a few more times?
You would have to buff for a really long time to over buff. I was very picky when it came to my tank and buffing it so I worked for hours and hours on it. There was a lot of beer going around in this process.

Like when you said "buff with #2 multiple times" did you mean you'd wipe it clean and restart it again? (New pad/cloth on the buffer each time?) Or just that you went over each spot repeatedly...

I bought multiple pads but I would also hand clean them in the sink and let them dry before using it again. Make sure it is soft if you are going to try and do this. I buffed spots multiple times. I probably buffed the tank a total of 3 times all the way through before I was not able to see any scratches.

(btw, if you buffed for two hours, how did you not pass out from the fumes?)

I had the bandanna or mask (depending on what day I was doing it) on but I felt tired the whole time so Id put money on the fumes were actually getting to me.

When you say it should be like glue, does that mean that you were letting it sit and harden up a bit so it was more sticky/pasty than the liquid is at first?

I did not let it sit but I would go down and back on the tank buffing it so it would become sticky over time. I just kept putting more polish on as I went. I never went over a dry area without polish on it. If it does dry, you have waited too long. Probably not the best move to work on the polish when it dries.

Also, you mentioned throwing out the sandpaper. How much would you say you went through of each grit in that 8x2 pane of acrylic? Maybe I am not using enough. It basically turned the paper white after a stroke or two though.

1 pack of 800 grit, 3 of 1000 grit, 5 of 1500 grit, and probably close to 7 of the 2,000 grit. Once the paper is all white with the little bumps of acrylic dust on it, THROW IT OUT. It will only make your job harder if you keep using it. You can pat the paper to get some of the dust out but before long the paper will be done. If the strokes that you are doing dont look like the strokes you were doing in the very beginning, it is time to change the paper out. By looks I mean the strokes in the beginning will be a lot more blurry than the strokes in the end of the paper's life strokes.
 
Was the surface of your hand sander larger than the width of the sandpaper? Did you just end up cutting the extra length off of the sand paper?

I got ripped off on mine. Stupid Chicago doesn't have enough of these chains, I had to go to Pep Boys. $4 for 5 sheets total. Ridiculous. I think I'm going to just order the big 9x11 sheets from Autozone.com and return this stuff. Spending $35 on sandpaper is kind of absurd. 4 9x11 sheets of 800, which gives me 16 passes with the hand sander, is $4.50.

The hand sander I got, which is basically the same specs as the one you linked, still appears to orbit, not go straight back and forth. It's moving too fast to tell for sure but it almost seems like it vibrates diagonally. I tested it on some scrap and it polished right out the same way all my hand sanding had (ie, decently but not perfectly) so maybe I'm imagining things. I boxed it up to return but perhaps I'm wrong about this. I think I'll go to a different hardware store and ask to be sure.

I think there's still a chance I just suck at all this. I put some Novus 3 and 2 on my mouse (apple wireless magic mouse) to see how it dealt with the scratching on top of it from when it was in my bag. I spent quite a bit of time on it with each and there's no change. The scratching isn't like giant gouges, just a lot of little ones in the same small area. So who knows. I might be incompetent. The tank downstairs (which I sanded by hand and then buffed) has no obvious scratches in it anymore but it is not perfectly clear either. With the right light I can see the sandpaper marks still, kind of like a faint haze, and there are definitely swirl marks on the outside. (I bought a foam buffer pad to see if that plus #1 might deal with the swirl marks.) It definitely looks better than before, just not as perfect as you say yours came out. I'm determined to get this stuff perfect.
 
OK now we're getting somewhere. I'm going to need this palm sander for other wood jobs later so there's no reason for me not to dirty it up, so I went ahead and made several passes on my 120's lid to see what happened. I went 1000-1000-1500-2000. The lid is a bit bowed so there are some spots that it just couldn't hit but that's OK.

It definitely oscillates instead of just going totally back and forth, despite what people at the HD said when I called. When not using a guide to keep me straight it definitely pulled me to the side and wanted to wiggle around some. Not like an orbital buffer/sander, but it wasn't like a self propelled lawnmower either.

Anyway, I didn't care if this screwed things up, so I just did it all anyway. Didn't take long, as it's only about 12x18 inches of space. I should've put a pad underneath it though, because my burnished granite countertop (yes, I did this right in the kitchen) ended up digging these awful marks into the bottom edge from the tool vibration. Whoops.

I especially focused on the same spot in a corner every time by, and tried to get different light angles and to show how the overhead light diffused off the acrylic. Tried taking closeup photos of it but the focus is imperfect at that range. Best I could do:

Photos in order:
1st pass w sander, 1000 grit
1st pass
2nd pass, 1500 - note the little curly-Q markings
2nd pass
2nd pass w/flash
3rd pass (2000) & #1 wipedown, w/flash
3rd pass & #1 no flash
3rd & wipedown corner closeup
#2 buff w/wool
#2 buff w/wool corner closeup
more #2, wiped off with towel
more #2 closeup, wiped off with towel and fingertip
#2 after foam pad. You can see streaks from the towel and my finger
final corner closeup after foam pad buffing with #2

You can really see a major change in the last four, where that visible seam of sanding marks disappears.

The real difference maker, I think, was switching from the wool pad to the foam one. Not only was it much easier to use with less side splashing and less pressure required to control it, but it seemed to really work better to get into the acrylic.

It's not perfect. On very close examination I can see the little curly-Q sand marks in that corner. But it takes a very close look under direct light. And I suspect that hand sanding and/or more coats of the Novus would completely eliminate it. I'm also curious to see what a quick pass with a torch would yield. (I know flame polishing is great for edges, but what about a very quick pass on the front of a pane? If torches are cheap I will experiment.)

So... my conclusion as of right now is that if you can get a power sander that truly just goes back and forth (or north/south, however you want to say it) without any oscillation, this is a great approach. Otherwise I think I'd say just do it by hand. Get one of those blocks you can tack the sandpaper into and grip and use that for the back and forth sanding. Then buff, first with wool but then with a foam pad. That made the biggest difference for me.

I think I'd also advise using a brand new microfiber cloth to do the final wipedown to clean it off. I feel like my 100% cotton bath towels still leave some marks, maybe even minor scratches... certainly some streaking. The Novus definitely leaves a tiny bit of a film, the kind of thing you can leave obvious fingerprints in. I think microfiber might take this off a bit better.

My other observation is that Novus #2 and the standard 3M rubbing compound (which you can buy in a giant jug at auto parts stores) are, as far as I can tell, the exact same thing. Same color, thickness, scent, consistency, etc.

Sorry to turn this into Dave's little experimentation thread, but I figure that between Mike's success on the first try and my goofing around with this stuff, lots of other people can probably learn a lot from this.

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I was curious about hand sanding so I flipped it over. The gouges I put in it are far deeper than 1000 grit can handle, which is to be expected, so I just did the edge. This was five minutes of work, tops. Just a quick 1000-1500-2000 sequence of hand sanding (without even a block) then a wipedown with #1 and quick buff with #2 and foam.

Looks great. A little bit of crosshatching from the sanding process is visible in one corner. I wonder if that means I pressed down too hard or something, or if maybe it just didn't get as much buffing.

Each pass with sandpaper is not taking away 100% of the previous pass. So if I go N-S over the first E-W pass, I can still see a bit of the previous E-W. I am not sure that's optimal. Maybe it should get a quick #1 wipedown to clean all the dust off before each step of the sanding. I bet that'd make a difference. Might save some paper too... The 2000 clogs up with dust really fast, but I bet that's more from what was already there than what it produces.

So although I'm aware that it's much easier to hand sand the outside of a small piece than the inside of a tank, I'm leaning towards saying that hand sanding will end up working better. But as always, that could change if you have the right tool.
 
DaveB;4888287; said:
OK now we're getting somewhere. I'm going to need this palm sander for other wood jobs later so there's no reason for me not to dirty it up, so I went ahead and made several passes on my 120's lid to see what happened. I went 1000-1000-1500-2000. The lid is a bit bowed so there are some spots that it just couldn't hit but that's OK.

It definitely oscillates instead of just going totally back and forth, despite what people at the HD said when I called. When not using a guide to keep me straight it definitely pulled me to the side and wanted to wiggle around some. Not like an orbital buffer/sander, but it wasn't like a self propelled lawnmower either.

Anyway, I didn't care if this screwed things up, so I just did it all anyway. Didn't take long, as it's only about 12x18 inches of space. I should've put a pad underneath it though, because my burnished granite countertop (yes, I did this right in the kitchen) ended up digging these awful marks into the bottom edge from the tool vibration. Whoops.

:cry:

I especially focused on the same spot in a corner every time by, and tried to get different light angles and to show how the overhead light diffused off the acrylic. Tried taking closeup photos of it but the focus is imperfect at that range. Best I could do:

Photos in order:
1st pass w sander, 1000 grit
1st pass
2nd pass, 1500 - note the little curly-Q markings
2nd pass
2nd pass w/flash
3rd pass (2000) & #1 wipedown, w/flash
3rd pass & #1 no flash
3rd & wipedown corner closeup
#2 buff w/wool
#2 buff w/wool corner closeup
more #2, wiped off with towel
more #2 closeup, wiped off with towel and fingertip
#2 after foam pad. You can see streaks from the towel and my finger
final corner closeup after foam pad buffing with #2

Dave the pictures were awesome. Thanks for saving my butt with those so people would believe me. I think you can see where the sander oscillated a little bit in the middle. Might be from the buffer though.

You can really see a major change in the last four, where that visible seam of sanding marks disappears.

The real difference maker, I think, was switching from the wool pad to the foam one. Not only was it much easier to use with less side splashing and less pressure required to control it, but it seemed to really work better to get into the acrylic.

I am going to have to try that next time. Thanks for trying new things. I know my way was not perfect what so ever.


It's not perfect. On very close examination I can see the little curly-Q sand marks in that corner.

I noticed I would get those curly-Q sand marks when I needed to pat the sand paper down or needed to change the paper. They happen because particles build up on the sand.

But it takes a very close look under direct light. And I suspect that hand sanding and/or more coats of the Novus would completely eliminate it. I'm also curious to see what a quick pass with a torch would yield. (I know flame polishing is great for edges, but what about a very quick pass on the front of a pane? If torches are cheap I will experiment.)

I wanted to try the flame polishing but I was afraid to do it on my tank haha. Make sure you get the right propane.

So... my conclusion as of right now is that if you can get a power sander that truly just goes back and forth (or north/south, however you want to say it) without any oscillation, this is a great approach. Otherwise I think I'd say just do it by hand. Get one of those blocks you can tack the sandpaper into and grip and use that for the back and forth sanding. Then buff, first with wool but then with a foam pad. That made the biggest difference for me.

Big area = Power Sander Small Area = Sanding block or just your hand. That's how I saved time. I did it both ways.

I think I'd also advise using a brand new microfiber cloth to do the final wipedown to clean it off. I feel like my 100% cotton bath towels still leave some marks, maybe even minor scratches... certainly some streaking. The Novus definitely leaves a tiny bit of a film, the kind of thing you can leave obvious fingerprints in. I think microfiber might take this off a bit better.

I tried the microfiber but it was the cheap stuff and it did not work so well. I used a lot of cotton t-shirts and I cut all the seems and sewn areas off.

My other observation is that Novus #2 and the standard 3M rubbing compound (which you can buy in a giant jug at auto parts stores) are, as far as I can tell, the exact same thing. Same color, thickness, scent, consistency, etc.

I agree with you 10000% on this statement. My thing was was I did not know if it had any extra chemicals in it for the paint on the cars or not. I highly doubt it though.

Sorry to turn this into Dave's little experimentation thread, but I figure that between Mike's success on the first try and my goofing around with this stuff, lots of other people can probably learn a lot from this.

Thanks for all your input Dave, and don't be sorry at all. All we are doing is experimenting to find the most efficient, cheapest method to get the job done. Nothing wrong with adding your 2 cents in. Also, my first try was a very long first try so Id consider it a few tries. :ROFL:
:WHOA:
 
DaveB;4888371; said:
I was curious about hand sanding so I flipped it over. The gouges I put in it are far deeper than 1000 grit can handle, which is to be expected, so I just did the edge. This was five minutes of work, tops. Just a quick 1000-1500-2000 sequence of hand sanding (without even a block) then a wipedown with #1 and quick buff with #2 and foam.

Looks great. A little bit of crosshatching from the sanding process is visible in one corner. I wonder if that means I pressed down too hard or something, or if maybe it just didn't get as much buffing.

I noticed corners tend to be a little harder to work in so I was a little lazy in them and did not get as good of a buff in those areas.

Each pass with sandpaper is not taking away 100% of the previous pass. So if I go N-S over the first E-W pass, I can still see a bit of the previous E-W. I am not sure that's optimal. Maybe it should get a quick #1 wipedown to clean all the dust off before each step of the sanding. I bet that'd make a difference. Might save some paper too... The 2000 clogs up with dust really fast, but I bet that's more from what was already there than what it produces.

I personally did wipe downs as much as possible. I would do 1500 North South and then come back and do 1500 East West and then do 2000 North South and then East West. So basically I doubled it up so I could get as much of the bigger marks left from the 1000 as possible.

So although I'm aware that it's much easier to hand sand the outside of a small piece than the inside of a tank, I'm leaning towards saying that hand sanding will end up working better. But as always, that could change if you have the right tool.

I personally had more trouble with just using my hand but then again I ended up pushing too hard as well as not being even. I guess all the broken bones in my hands from sports are finally coming back to haunt me haha.

Thanks for all your input Dave. :popcorn:
 
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