"Sangria" the monstafied ZZ makes his MFK debut

FishingOut

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The topic has been discussed many times here so lets just keep this one going. This has nothing to do with making your own foods or about the carotenoids in shrimp (which I believe was our last debate haha)

So whats the argument here? The presence of hormones and extreme levels of fats and vitamins will do nothing more than a traditional CA diet? Ex: foods fortified to be remotely natural to what they would eat in the wild?

Unless you are R.D. Miles, saying you can make food on a national level in completely outlandish.
A nuchal hump is a blob of fatty tissue, Its where these fish store alot of their fat. There are "many" factors that contribute to the size of the kok. Dominance is a big one. Hormones help that.

Dont get my wrong I know they live long and healthy on standard foods, But if you want the maximum potential of your fish these enhancers foods do work. Im not saying its some miracle food that will turn a low-grade into a monster kok or a duck into a swan. Chingmix cannot do the work of proper husbandry and good genetics, But it can bring out a fishes full potential. I've seen it pump many fish up, Beyond what traditional foods can do.
 

RD.

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Unless you are R.D. Miles, saying you can make food on a national level in completely outlandish.
LOL, that's funny. One doesn't have to be a professor, or for that matter hold any type of degree, in order to qualify to make a high quality fish food. You just have to understand the basic principles behind making commercial feeds, and the nutrient requirements of the fish, which I do, and then some. Over the years I've swapped spit with the best of them, including manufacturers, company reps, marine biologists, zoologists, DVM's, research scientists that specialize in this field, and with enough letters after their name to sink a ship. I'm 50+ yrs of age, and have been closely involved in the science of pet food for over half of my life.

Not saying that I know it all, 'cause I most certainly don't, but I know more than enough to create high quality fish feed on a commercial scale, and not just simply rely on some R&D person at a feed mill to formulate it to their specs.

That's why I constantly shake my head when consumers get sucked into the hyperbole surrounding specialty FH foods, as though FH people reinvented the wheel when it comes to fish nutrition.
Trust me, they didn't.

Nuchal humps are indeed made up of 'some' fatty tissue, how much depends entirely on the type of nuchal hump. But fat that is not entirely utilized by a fish as an immediate energy source (which is the main role of fat in a fishes diet) does not equate to all of the excess going directly to growth of a nuchal hump. Most of that excess fat will be deposited in & around the fishes organs, which long term will degrade the health of the fish, and in many cases cause premature death. When I read about the numerous cases of SDS (sudden & unexplained death) in FH I often wonder how many of these cases involved overfeeding, and/or an excess of lipids (fat) in the diet. Unfortunately the vast majority of hobbyists do not have a necropsy performed when their prized fish suddenly dies prematurely, they simply replace it with another fish.

To quote Dr. Ruth Francis-Floyd, a fellow professor of RD Miles at the U of FL,
"Fatty infiltration of the liver has also been designated "the most common metabolic disturbance and most frequent cause of death in aquarium fish"

and .....

With prolonged feeding of a high-energy, lipid rich diet, degenerative changes of the liver and death can occur unless the diet is corrected.
I've been promoting sound husbandry practices (such as limiting a cichlids fat intake) for many years, long before any of the specialty FH foods were on the market. None of this comes as news to me.



So whats the argument here? The presence of hormones and extreme levels of fats and vitamins will do nothing more than a traditional CA diet?
The argument is that the so called specialty FH foods, while they may supply a more than adequate diet for a FH, are made up of the exact same nutrients (amino acids, fatty acids, carbs, and vitamins & trace minerals) used in any other high quality commercial diet, and in some cases actually fall far short of other cichlid foods currently on the market. One doesn't need to be a rocket scientist to understand that raw ingredients such as soybean meal & corn meal do not equate to premium ingredients, yet those two ingredients are in fact being used by one of the specialty FH food manufacturers.

One of these FH food makers promotes their high quality whitefish meal, yet fail to mention that whitefish meal is made from processing plant leftovers, basically what's left after the fillets have been removed. (heads, scales, and bones) Not that whitefish meal won't get the job done, it will, but it typically falls in the 62% crude protein range, where whole herring meal is in the 72% CP range. Also, whitefish meal, as most generic fish meals, come with excess baggage, in the form of a high ash content. Note the ash content in those foods (typically 13-18%) and it becomes crystal clear as to what the source of fish protein is.

Ash in a fish food is the inorganic material that comes mainly from using inexpensive, lower quality fish meal that contain high amounts of fish bones and scales. It contributes directly to pollution in ones tank, and is something that one should always want to see @ 10% or lower in a feed.
Some manufacturers actually go so far as to leave the ash content off of the label, as it is not required by law to be listed under the guaranteed analysis.


I'm curious, twice now you have mentioned hormones - are some of the FH foods using synthetic hormones in their food? If so, none of them admit it, and most deny the use of hormones.
 

FishingOut

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Very interesting stuff RD. Im certainly not doubting your vast knowledge of the kok, but all jokes aside you do you know your stuff. Im not saying I know what fish need to survive. I just know people who are seriously into FH and all my knowledge is an accumilation of that and info I have read on the net. So this is my opinion, which relies on logic, not so much sources and proof. If I can be proved wrong, Good, I love learning.

Creating your own foods aside, The topic is, Does FH enhancing foods live up to their reputation or are people so blind by marketing they dont realize their fish is just growing up.

They contain no "special ingredients" so the package says. Or so they want the public to believe. All these foods are made and shipped from overseas, FDA has no involvment. I thought It was common knowledge that these foods increased hormones. Ecpecially considering the shady packing these foods come in. As well as the way my own fish reacted to it. It was like I gave them steroids.

My thoughts behind the kok being genetic is this, Fish produce their own hormones. The koks purpose is to intiminate other males as well as attract females. The dominant male of the group will most always have the largest hump. Geneticly this doesnt add up, So that leaves the 1 remaining factor, Testosterone being a big supporter of kok.


Ive heard of CR6(methyl testosterone) given to young discus and FH to make the fish develop color at a much younger age. As well as corophyll pink (synthetic axtaxanthene) But given for too long or too high of a dose will make the fish more than likely sterile. This has been thought to have been used in the process of Koi going from brown to neon orange.
Everything were saying is probable theory, but until R&D's start testing carotenoid contents of skin and testosterone levels we are left with our theories. Throughout history hormones have made a huge impact on fish marketing. We know this as the dark-side of fish breeding that breeders will not share. This has nothing to do with artificial or natural foods, Its the long debated topic of whether these foods affect testosterone levels, have hormones, as well decrease the fertility in our FH. I read something on fhcraze about this one guy who was actually doing the scientific analysis of ching, but they closed the thread down befor the results. The thread was in half english/ half asain, but it makes sense considered ching is associated with FHcraze.
 

RD.

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IMO it's not that people are so blind to marketing, I think that it's more to do with all of the best (in the early stages) FH originating in Asia, where of course most of these so called specialty foods have also been developed, and heavily marketed. So if a breeder (with a possible vested interest) or even a serious hobbyist (with no vested interest) states that his MP flowerhorn was raised on brand XYZ, other hobbyists will soon follow that lead & also begin trying that food. If the genetics are there, and those fish also mature into amazing looking masterpiece fish, then more hobbyists will surely follow. And so the legend begins .......

What I'm saying is that ANY decent quality food would have produced the same results, and long term health wise, perhaps far better results. If the genetics are there, and the fish is properly maintained & grown out, there is no need for any "magical elixirs", or hormones.


In Asia the use of hormones is common place. Not all breeders use hormones, but many do, and many are quite open about it. I recall showing someone several years back a breeder of cichlids in China who openly disclosed the fact that he used hormones on his fish. You could choose from his "juiced" stock, or his non hormoned stock.

With African cichlids, hormones are often used on juvenile fish to enhance the fishes color. Juveniles will show adult coloration, as will females, even if the adult females are normally drab brown in color. Millions of hormoned fish from Asia enter the North American market every year. The problem with hormones is not only can they cause a fish to become sterile, but they can also cause organ damage if used long term. IMO feeding fish hormones, is about as stunned as athletes getting juiced up. Personally I like to see a fish showing its best, naturally, not juiced up with hormones, or jacked up on massive amounts of synthetic color enhancing agents, such as Carophyll Pink. If a fish requires hormones & Carophyll Pink to look good, then IMO it's time to start looking for a new fish.

I'm surprised that the Chingmix staff would have wanted the results of a study on their food shut down, unless of course they had something to hide. While it is true that the USDA or FDA do not typically test imported fish foods from Asia, as of last year, Canada now requires foreign pet food manufacturers to pass risk assessments of their facilities, performed by Canadian Food Inspection Agency staff. Those that don't comply, are not allowed in to the country. None of the FH foods currently on the market are legally allowed into Canada. What does that tell you?

If some of these FH foods do contain hormones, then it's difficult for me to comment on their overall results. Nutrition wise, they appear to be decent foods, but certainly are not worthy of the sticker price attached to them. There are far better foods made in the USA, that cost a LOT less.
 

FishingOut

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They cost more because hormones are expensive haha.
Have you ever used grand sumo or humpyhead? It smells so potent its sickening. Its like massivore x5. The pellets are small too so the fish just swallow them without losing any vitamins.
Some people have probably been put off by it because Ive heard of alot of people selling fake grand sumo, chingmix, or white crane. They buy it take the pellets, put cheap pellets back in it and reseal it, and nobody is the wiser.
I feed to saturation 2-3 times a week and have seen a huge development since I've started. Maybe try it instead of writing it off so quickly. Its cetainly not going to lengthen your fishes life because im sure its not too healthy. But it will pump a fish up rather quickly, Probably not for the long run though.
 

RD.

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Seriously, I wouldn't feed a food to my fish where hormones were even slightly suspected, even if it was given to me for free. White Crane is a classic example where hormones have always been denied by the manufacturer, yet many hobbyists have had their plain jane brown female fish turn into ultra color males after feeding that food. And yet another food that cannot be legally imported into Canada.

I'm not saying that Grand Sumo or Chingmix contained synthetic hormones, but when comparing raw ingredients, and knowing what I know, they simply don't measure up to what I feed, and I prefer to leave the experimenting to lab rats, not my fish. I know exactly what's in the food that I feed my fish.

Take a look at some of the CA's shown below, including the citrinellus with the big honking nuchal hump, and yet none of those fish have ever tasted any of the specialty FH foods. All of them were raised almost exclusively on NLS. :)








and this wild labiatus ......



..... that later blossomed into this monster.




More pics of these fish & others can be seen in the link below.

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203143


Again, I have no problem with anyone who wants to feed specialty FH foods, or foods that are jacked up with mega doses of synthetic color enhancers, but I would never consider them to be "better" when compared to some of the products that are made in the USA, under strict USDA guidelines, and sold at a fraction of the cost.
 

FishingOut

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This camera is awful. I dont understand how you guys can get such excellent shots. Im going to have to look into it, Because I hit the button and its flashes 2 seconds later which ruins the picture haha, But heres the best I can do.
The last shot Sangria is doing a headstand for food. This is his way of saying FEED ME! He does it nonstop haha.
There is also a shot of my girls FH, Cherry Blossom.
Enjoy

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