Short Body Oscar
- Thread starter Kaliedoscope
- Start date
i still would not put a oscar in a 20gallon....
That comment was made mainly in jest...but I think a lot of times things such as a sb retail catfish is wanted is precisely because they don't grow as large and can be kept in reasonable sized aquariums, not 20 gallons mind you
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I'm glad I sparked a livley debate here. What i was trying to raise by being, I'll admit, harsh, to the 2econd poster (My apologies) was exactly what you have brought up-
Now that these varieties of fish have become domesticated their basic needs are met (such as survival, which would arguably take "survival of the fittest" out of the equation), Dosen't now the survival and reproductive sucess of each individual now depend in a large part on them setting them apart from the herd so to speak in the minds of humans?
Could it not be said that the evolution of the short body gene in oscars now depends on those short bodied oscars, perhaps by chance, catching the eye of someone like me, who breeds short bodied fish and is capable of breeding oscars?
Does that not make this oscar "fitter" by comparison because I, a fish nerd, bought it and plans on treating it right? (edit- and bringing it reproductive sucess as many times as possible which is the main point of darwinian evolution)
To say this is the next stage of so called symbiotic evolution between animals and humans may be going too far at this point, but I feel I have made my case.
: )
Ps. What strikes me as a golden opportunity about this oscar is particularly that it means a smaller oscar may in fact be possible. I work in a fish store and too often see people love oscars who don't have a big enough tank for them. Breeding a smaller oscar to me means potentially cutting down on those returned oscars who have stunting and hppd. But of course we can also just try our best to educate these customers.
Now that these varieties of fish have become domesticated their basic needs are met (such as survival, which would arguably take "survival of the fittest" out of the equation), Dosen't now the survival and reproductive sucess of each individual now depend in a large part on them setting them apart from the herd so to speak in the minds of humans?
Could it not be said that the evolution of the short body gene in oscars now depends on those short bodied oscars, perhaps by chance, catching the eye of someone like me, who breeds short bodied fish and is capable of breeding oscars?
Does that not make this oscar "fitter" by comparison because I, a fish nerd, bought it and plans on treating it right? (edit- and bringing it reproductive sucess as many times as possible which is the main point of darwinian evolution)
To say this is the next stage of so called symbiotic evolution between animals and humans may be going too far at this point, but I feel I have made my case.
: )
Ps. What strikes me as a golden opportunity about this oscar is particularly that it means a smaller oscar may in fact be possible. I work in a fish store and too often see people love oscars who don't have a big enough tank for them. Breeding a smaller oscar to me means potentially cutting down on those returned oscars who have stunting and hppd. But of course we can also just try our best to educate these customers.
Google miniature herefords. If they can cut a slow reproducing ruminant down to nearly half size and still maintain relatively stable herds, you could do it much faster with oscars.
With market rabbits we were effectively able build any "ideal" combination in under 6 years. So maybe 10 generations of careful line breeding could get you the mini-oscars...but I don't know how far you can inbreed them.
Sorry but since mother nature doesn't realize that certain people find SB fish attractive and that it may help with the Oscars survival in captivity it is not a evolutionary step. Again look up evolution and you'll see it's adaptations in an attempt to overcome certain environmental factors to help ensure survival and perhaps give an animal an edge over other animals in their local ecosystem. Since being a shot bodied animal doesn't help the Oscar overcome environmental challenges in captivity it's is not a product of evolution. As a matter of fact I've already said even in captivity it's a set back. Short body fish aren't as fast or agile a swimmer as other regular fish, which is detriment to their survival. In a tank they can't get to food as quick and have a harder time evading aggression from other fish in the limited space of captive quarters. In case you haven't noticed most SB fish overcome this detriment with aggression. Parrots, SB Green Terrors, SB Trimacs, SB Flowerhorns. They're all fairly aggressive and though that aggression isn't intentional or linked to SB gene it has helped them over come the SB detriment.
Let me put it this way domesticated dogs are not products of evolution. They where bred by people to exemplify certain traits, many times to make them more efficient at there jobs or as companions. Since they weren't driven to adapt by a biological imperative they are not products of evolution. As far as I know there's never been a case of a dog developing on it's own into a cuter dog to help it become more attractive to people. If you know of such a case then that might lead credence to your point and you'd be hailed for proving something that has never been proven or occurred before. The same thing with fish in all there time in captivity none have evolved into cuter versions of themselves to help make them more appealing to some people and therefore ensure their survival. Any change in appearance has been line bred into them by man, not nature hence not produced by a biological imperative or need for survival and not a product of evolution.
Again that's not to say that people line breeding these traits maybe detremental for their long term life in captivity, it may be as you say beneficial for people who have limited space. I say may because a SB fish doesn't necessarily need less room than a regular bodied fish. Remember tank size isn't determined by size of a fish alone. Also it should be common knowledge that any fish can be bred through our meddling into short bodied fish, that's no big revelation. Anyone with a rudimentary understanding of genetics can line breed fish to accentuate any characteristic the fish has whether through a dominant gene or a recessive one. It just takes time and research and will.
So sorry I don't see where anything you've said is correct or a revelation to the hobby.
That oscar doesnt look full short body. Or atleast not the line bred look. Thing about baby oscars is that they can fool you. Ive seem a few here and there in batches of babies at major lfs. Mind you they arent culled because theyre alive, and to the wholesaler deformed or not its another dollar earned. Besides their is market for short bodies whether you like it or not. And i really insist this site go on without including opinion when it wasnt asked for or contribute to solve any problem the op is asking for. This is deteriorating this site more lately than ive ever seen in 7 years of being here. Simply have something constructive to add or move on. No one forcing you to post in a thread about a fish or subject you dont like.
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Always boils down to this,
Natural selection or artificial selection
An argument can be made that both are forms of evolution. It just depends on how you define evolution. Some textbooks use koltsix's description. Others, like all of mine, just leave it at a change in allele frequencies within populations with no mention of qualifying selection.
Natural selection or artificial selection
An argument can be made that both are forms of evolution. It just depends on how you define evolution. Some textbooks use koltsix's description. Others, like all of mine, just leave it at a change in allele frequencies within populations with no mention of qualifying selection.
So then by that definition(any change in allele frequencies within a population with no qualifying selection.) are children born with birth defects products of evolution? Defects involving the change of an allele such Familial hypercholesterolemia, Huntington disease, Neurofibromatosis, Marfan Syndrome? When Darwin put forth his theory of evolution it was based on natural selection. Which as you said fits my definition, your definition is probably subject related in my opinion. Definitions change slightly becoming more broad or specific depending on the subject matter being discussed. In your books which I'm imagining are text books the definition you where given is probably a result of how it relates to the books subject matter, not that it's a true universal definition.
That's my opinion anyway as to the difference in definitions. I'm also quite humble and never mind being enlightened, so if you could explain to me how birth defects caused by allele's are products of evolution I would welcome the knowledge. Or if somehow I misinterpreted your definition I wouldn't mind being corrected about that as well. This way you can explain the nuances that I maybe missing.
Thanks Kolt
To be honest, without technology, children with most birth defects will die. Or women with narrow pelvic bones for that matter... Nature is often not very nice to individuals or sometimes entire species.
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Ok, getting back to the orginal questions here, which btw had absolutely nothing to do with evolution or the opinions on the looks of the fish, ethical breeding practice etc...I found this in a random wholesale oscar shipment
How rare is this?
Is this evidence that florida is breeding short bodied oscars?
his name is muffin
1. I would say it's rare, not as short as some sb fish, but arguably sb.
2. In no way would I take this as evidence that FLA fish farms are breeding sb oscars...it's just one fish. If you'd found 50-100 sb oscars from a FLA shipment that would be a little different. Until you hear reports of large numbers of sb oscars hailing from FLA I would hold off on that assessment.
