The differences between cichlids.

[Fanatic_Fish_Lunatic]

I'm just curious. Technically speaking, how different do South American cichlids, Central American cichlids, rift lakes cichlids(Malawi, Tanganyika and Victoria) and riverine cichlids treat and perceive territories and hierarchy? How different do they treat their tank boss? Also, how different is the way they communicate with eachother? Can cichlids from different species communicate? Can cichlids from different continent communicate?

 

[duanes]

There is an entire and fascinating book called, The Cichlid Fishes, Natures Grand experiment in Evolution , byGeorge Barlow
that explains all that.

As you can see, mine is well worn.

 

[Fanatic_Fish_Lunatic]

There is an entire and fascinating book called, The Cichlid Fishes, Natures Grand experiment in Evolution , byGeorge Barlow
that explains all that.
View attachment 1558480
As you can see, mine is well worn.

I'd love to have one. I'm a book addict, lol. Though I don't think I can get one since this book can't be found in Thailand, the country that I'm in unless I order it, but the shipping cost is probably...high.

 

[justintheodd]

I'm just curious. Technically speaking, how different do South American cichlids, Central American cichlids, rift lakes cichlids(Malawi, Tanganyika and Victoria) and riverine cichlids treat and perceive territories and hierarchy? How different do they treat their tank boss? Also, how different is the way they communicate with eachother? Can cichlids from different species communicate? Can cichlids from different continent communicate?

That is actually a very interesting question. I see this interaction every day in my mixed cichlid tank. for territory/hierarchy, it is definitley way different. africans definitley have a hirearchy, but in a properly stocked african tank, there is really no territory. in contrast, my cons and GT have their own territories that they are VERY eager to protect, and it definitly confuses the africans. Tank boss is also a very different thing, as the tank boss is less nooticable in a african tank, as they dont ussually have much of their own territory, but once i added thunk my big male con, he definitley ran the tank and we noticed. communication between continents can sometimes be very difficult, as they have very dissimilar ways of communicating. for example, when one of my africans wants to show agression, they will usually display their sides, then if that dosent work, do the agression dance (moving back and forth while waving their fins and facing their enemy) and finally, they will sorta bite each others mouths really quick and then jump back and start over. meanwhile, my SA cichlids will start by not by doing the showing of the side, but go straight into flaring their gills intead, thean of that doesnt work, they move into the agression dance while still flaring gills, and finally, instead of doing quick bites, they will attempt to lock jaws untill the other one submits. overall, i keep a mixed cichlid tank, but probably wouldnt reccomend it to a newcomer (despite being in the hobby for only 2 years) due to all of these differences. this is not a professional scientific opinion, just observations.

 

[duanes]

I was able to get my second addition in Panama thru Amazon, and I consider it a must have, for any cichlid enthusiast.

That said....cichlids from different continents all have different ways of communication, along with differences in water parameters, temp requirements, and territorial strategies.
Many cichlids are social (Geophagus, Cribroheroa, Thorichthys)

and require different living strategies than loners, such as Nandopsis, Mayaheros beani, or some Herichthys.

Some are vegetarian, some frugifores, some piscavores, some molluscavores, there is a cichlid fro Lake Barumbi mbu that lives almost entirely feeding on freshwater sponges


The cichlids from. India and Madagascar even have different ways of perceiving sound than all other cichlids, and have an entirely different auditory system

.
There are cichlids fro Uruguay that require winter cool downs, and some like Alcolapia that come fro saline lakes saltier the the ocean, and live at high temps almost 90"F

 

[neutrino]

On some of those things it's more enlightening to distinguish between genera and species, or habitat and niche, than continents. There's as much or more difference in communication cues between discus and green terrors or frontosa and mbuna as there is Malawi and Amazon.

For example, on the mouth opening and gill flaring vs fin flaring and side display thing-- Cyphotilapia (Lake Tanganyika) do the former, not the latter, while they fight by locking mouths. Not only that, but while Malawi cichlids extend their fins in aggression mode, Cyphotilapia close them in preparation for a fight. That, and a lot of why you don't see territories in a typical Malawi tank is because they're typically overstocked to mitigate aggression, precisely to try and prevent territories. So, for example, a number of mbuna species claim and fiercely protect small, individual territories in their natural, rocky habitat. I've seen mbuna tanks set up this way, filled with rocks with a lot of gaps and holes and each fish happily tucked into their particular spot without much drama. Tanganyikan shell dwellers have a different version of this, using shells instead of holes in the rocks.

Meanwhile, you absolutely don't want to crowd some of the medium to larger Lake Tanganyika cichlids, like Cyphotilapia, Cyathopharynx or Benthochromis. You'd want to keep them more like large new world cichlids, with plenty of space. Cyathopharynx, for example, shoal in shallow water, while males build and protect large nests in the sand to attract females and breed, Cyphotilapia gibberosa hang in small groups near rocky shelfs and boulders, while Benthochromis are shoaling, open water fish. Body language for some species can be quite unique, for example the "bugling" of Benthochromis. Whether a species establishes hierarchies depends mainly on whether they're shoaling or social vs solitary, not which continent they come from. Feeding strategy is another factor in social structure, lurking predators vs traveling predators vs foragers vs grazers.

Bottom line is a lot of the generalizations between continents that I've heard over the years don't really hold water, including that SA fish are low pH, soft water fish while African cichlids like "liquid concrete." Tell that to some of the riverine African fish or an Andinoacara stalsbergi living in Laguna de Vegueta.

 

[duanes]

One aspect that many aquarists fail to recognize, is thatmany species have evoled over years or even centuries in survive certain water courses.

There are Cichla iiviing in Lake Gatun Panama where pH often hits 9, and water can be brackish, but they were introduced in the 1960s.
Over those 60 some years in the lake, there have been many that have perished over that time, and only those that have been able to fully adapt to the water parameters, and evolve resistance to the different parameters and pathogenic hard water bacteria, have survied.
Normally Cichla come from waters from Amazonia in low pH, and low mineral content. But......
The Cichla from lake Gatun end up being much smaller than those from Amazonia.
And If an Amazonian Cichla evolved to live in low pH, soft waterm were to be dropped from Amazonia was into such the adverse conditions here in Lake Gatun, it may have a hard time , and fall victim to the different bacteria in the lake it has little immunity to.

There are Mayaheros uropthalmus I've seen living in pure sea water on the island of Isla de Mujeras, but that have taken centuries living in that salty water so have adapted.
I wonder if an individual was taken from, and evolved to live from one of the inland fresh water cenotes, woiuld immediately and comfortably adapt, if tossed into the caribbean sea, like those that have lived and evolved centuries on the reef of Isla de Mujeras for thise millenia
I'm sure a few could, but many perhaps 80% may not not,
and this is the problem when expecting certain species from one water type, to adapt to another, in aquaria.

I have seen reports that show many Uaru fernandesepezi fail in most aquarium systems.
Probably because they hail from pH 4 waters, and normal aquarium conditions are usually not.
So only a select few have the abilty to adapt.
When one pays $60 per fish, are we willing to take a chance that only one or 2 or of 10 purchased may survive?

 

[duanes]

In some cases, isolation has the capacity to alter genera so drastically and create new species most adapted to new and certain water parameters.
Most of the Rubricatochromis (jewel cichlids) of Africa are riverine species, existing in neutral to soft waters.
But a population of jewel cichlids became isolated, perhaps over 4 million years ago, when the saline waters of Lake Turkana were created.
They adapted to its seasonally salinity (brackish, @ 3 ppt or higher) and elevated pH (8.6 to 9.4) and became Rubricochromis excul.

Another grouip of cichlids of Tilapine lineage evolved into genus Alcolapia, in the waters of Lakes Natron and Ndalani, isolated in hot (up to 104:F) temps, with saline waters, (saltier than the ocean, and a pH rising as highh as up to 12))

Does this indicate all cichlids have the abilityto withstand these extremes,....of course not, or even some, slight alterations in their evolutionary norm.
Only thru the gauntlet of survival of the fittest (two or more individuals of a spawn) may be resilient enough to tolerate these or some extremes.

Alcolapia alcalicus above spawning

 

[Fanatic_Fish_Lunatic]

In some cases, isolation has the capacity to alter genera so drastically and create new species most adapted to new and certain water parameters.
Most of the Rubricatochromis (jewel cichlids) of Africa are riverine species, existing in neutral to soft waters.
But a population of jewel cichlids became isolated, perhaps over 4 million years ago, when the saline waters of Lake Turkana were created.
They adapted to its seasonally salinity (brackish, @ 3 ppt or higher) and elevated pH (8.6 to 9.4) and became Rubricochromis excul.

Another grouip of cichlids of Tilapine lineage evolved into genus Alcolapia, in the waters of Lakes Natron and Ndalani, isolated in hot (up to 104:F) temps, with saline waters, (saltier than the ocean, and a pH rising as highh as up to 12))

Does this indicate all cichlids have the abilityto withstand these extremes,....of course not, or even some, slight alterations in their evolutionary norm.
Only thru the gauntlet of survival of the fittest (two or more individuals of a spawn) may be resilient enough to tolerate these or some extremes.
View attachment 1558578View attachment 1558579View attachment 1558581
Alcolapia alcalicus above spawning

Do you have a YouTube channel? I could listen to an entire hour of yapping about cichlids and freshwater fishes in general.

 

[justintheodd]

In some cases, isolation has the capacity to alter genera so drastically and create new species most adapted to new and certain water parameters.
Most of the Rubricatochromis (jewel cichlids) of Africa are riverine species, existing in neutral to soft waters.
But a population of jewel cichlids became isolated, perhaps over 4 million years ago, when the saline waters of Lake Turkana were created.
They adapted to its seasonally salinity (brackish, @ 3 ppt or higher) and elevated pH (8.6 to 9.4) and became Rubricochromis excul.

Another grouip of cichlids of Tilapine lineage evolved into genus Alcolapia, in the waters of Lakes Natron and Ndalani, isolated in hot (up to 104:F) temps, with saline waters, (saltier than the ocean, and a pH rising as highh as up to 12))

Does this indicate all cichlids have the abilityto withstand these extremes,....of course not, or even some, slight alterations in their evolutionary norm.
Only thru the gauntlet of survival of the fittest (two or more individuals of a spawn) may be resilient enough to tolerate these or some extremes.
View attachment 1558578View attachment 1558579View attachment 1558581
Alcolapia alcalicus above spawning

these are possibly my favorite cichlids ever, they are the pinnicle of "Life finds a way"