It will be hard to time when it would turn the water, water changes and good filtration will delay the time. But 48 hours is kind of early.
Nice tank btw.
The effects of using driftwood
- Thread starter jacobfata
- Start date
Nice tank btw.
It depends on the wood. Some do not release any tannins. Mine only released some in the first month or so and it is a type similar to yours. Depending on what your goal for the tank is, an alternative easy and cheap way to add tannins is rooibos tea bags(naturally caffeine free tea) I've dropped them directly in the tank without any pre-boiling. It too has an effect on lowering the KH, then again in my hard water it was minimal. My fish liked the darkened look and like other tannins releasing agents, it is supposed to have antimicrobial and anti-fungal properties.
There are many different opinions in relation what is the best way to keep discus, even among really experienced discus keepers.
There is a discussion ongoing now on another thread that you maybe interested to read in relation to the same.
https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/...in-hard-water-rant.714934/page-6#post-8074970
Good luck with your tank. It looks lovely.
There are many different opinions in relation what is the best way to keep discus, even among really experienced discus keepers.
There is a discussion ongoing now on another thread that you maybe interested to read in relation to the same.
https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/...in-hard-water-rant.714934/page-6#post-8074970
Good luck with your tank. It looks lovely.
I am personally not a proponent of deep substrate either. In most cases there is no need. However....
The danger of deep substrates is that they can go completely anaerobic, due to the accumulation of organic matter and resulting low oxygen conditions. Anaerobic decomposition produces toxic gasses, such as hydrogen sulfide and methane, and also ammonia and nitrite as bi-producs of anaerobic decomposition. These will then be assimilated by other type of bacteria living at higher, more oxygenated levels of the substrate but can accumulate high enough to cause an issue, if the substrate is disturbed. Metal toxicity can also occur in anaerobic layers of the substrate.
However, this would only be the case in non-planted tanks or very lightly planted tanks.
The root system of plants naturally transport oxygen all around the roots and create oxygenated zones in the substrate, preventing it from going anaerobic. Plants like swords and crypts grow extensive root systems that will in time grow as long as the tank and will keep it from going anaerobic.
Planted substrates are also superior to a bare bottom or non planted tanks as they develop complex and diverse microbial systems keeping tanks stable. A planted tank substrate will also have great nitrification ability due to the delivery of oxygen for nitrifying bacteria living in the substrate. In a way, the plants also benefit from a lower anaerobic layer because due to the acidic conditions in those layers, metals(micro nutrients) such as iron are in a form available to plants.
Plants also take up nitrogen compounds directly, i.e. plants prefer ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate. Nitrogen compounds such as ammonia, nitrite and nitrate are essential to plants, and are also called macro nutrients, e.g. plants need them in big amounts which is a win win situation in fish tanks. Plants will also reduce accumulation of metals and increase oxygen content both in the substrate and water column. The benefits of plants are endless but they need care and understanding same as fish do.
So generally said, there is a truth to what you have been told but in planted tanks the mechanisms are different and you can easily turn your deep substrate into a benefit to the tank.
My advise at the moment would be roll with it as it is. But I'd advise to massively increase the planted area. Add some crypts perhaps. Once established they'll start throwing runners and create that under substrate web of roots I am talking about. Add any other plants you like. Floating and emersed plants is also a really good option as they have unlimited access to aerial CO2 and will only be limited to nutrients and sufficient light levels, which are easy to achieve.
Also, look into water circulation. Besides plants, oxygen delivery to substrate is achieved via circular flow. I touched upon the subject on post #7 in the below link. Good circular flow also plays a role in distribution of nutrients and CO2 to plants. CO2 is essential to plant health, same as light and nutrients are. In low tech tanks it is scarce and can be limiting plant growth and health.The natural way of CO2 production is fish respiration, aerobic decomposition(oxygen driven) and surface movement. Swords and crypts do well in low tech tanks as they can take up alternative sources of carbon.
https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/...ange-without-an-airstone.715954/#post-8083356
Also, keep your filters clean. I'd recommend having a sponge on the intake as a pre-filter. Filters can also go anaerobic due to accumulation of the picked up detritus, subsequent reduction of flow rates, reducing delivery of oxygen. Also, increased detritus leads to increase in heterotrophic facultative anaerobs, which in oxygenated conditions steal the oxygen from the good bacs out-competing them for both oxygen and surface area. Heterotrophs aren't very efficient in ammonia conversion either and this leads to deteriorating water conditions.
Also, once the oxygen has been reduced sufficiently, heterotrophs start anaerobic decomposition in the filter, releasing hydrogen sulfide, ammonia and nitrite, which is the exact opposite of what one wants happening in the filter.
In terms of water changes, the more is always better, no matter the tank. The minimum would be 50% weekly. With plants you may get away with that amount just fine. But you'd need more plants...
Fish diet is also extremely important. I'd look into feeding them high quality food like New Life Spectrum or Northfin.
And one last thing, the gravel may work its way up the sand. Larger particles always end on top eventually. It is only an issue of aesthetics.
Good luck whatever you decide to do.
The danger of deep substrates is that they can go completely anaerobic, due to the accumulation of organic matter and resulting low oxygen conditions. Anaerobic decomposition produces toxic gasses, such as hydrogen sulfide and methane, and also ammonia and nitrite as bi-producs of anaerobic decomposition. These will then be assimilated by other type of bacteria living at higher, more oxygenated levels of the substrate but can accumulate high enough to cause an issue, if the substrate is disturbed. Metal toxicity can also occur in anaerobic layers of the substrate.
However, this would only be the case in non-planted tanks or very lightly planted tanks.
The root system of plants naturally transport oxygen all around the roots and create oxygenated zones in the substrate, preventing it from going anaerobic. Plants like swords and crypts grow extensive root systems that will in time grow as long as the tank and will keep it from going anaerobic.
Planted substrates are also superior to a bare bottom or non planted tanks as they develop complex and diverse microbial systems keeping tanks stable. A planted tank substrate will also have great nitrification ability due to the delivery of oxygen for nitrifying bacteria living in the substrate. In a way, the plants also benefit from a lower anaerobic layer because due to the acidic conditions in those layers, metals(micro nutrients) such as iron are in a form available to plants.
Plants also take up nitrogen compounds directly, i.e. plants prefer ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate. Nitrogen compounds such as ammonia, nitrite and nitrate are essential to plants, and are also called macro nutrients, e.g. plants need them in big amounts which is a win win situation in fish tanks. Plants will also reduce accumulation of metals and increase oxygen content both in the substrate and water column. The benefits of plants are endless but they need care and understanding same as fish do.
So generally said, there is a truth to what you have been told but in planted tanks the mechanisms are different and you can easily turn your deep substrate into a benefit to the tank.
My advise at the moment would be roll with it as it is. But I'd advise to massively increase the planted area. Add some crypts perhaps. Once established they'll start throwing runners and create that under substrate web of roots I am talking about. Add any other plants you like. Floating and emersed plants is also a really good option as they have unlimited access to aerial CO2 and will only be limited to nutrients and sufficient light levels, which are easy to achieve.
Also, look into water circulation. Besides plants, oxygen delivery to substrate is achieved via circular flow. I touched upon the subject on post #7 in the below link. Good circular flow also plays a role in distribution of nutrients and CO2 to plants. CO2 is essential to plant health, same as light and nutrients are. In low tech tanks it is scarce and can be limiting plant growth and health.The natural way of CO2 production is fish respiration, aerobic decomposition(oxygen driven) and surface movement. Swords and crypts do well in low tech tanks as they can take up alternative sources of carbon.
https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/...ange-without-an-airstone.715954/#post-8083356
Also, keep your filters clean. I'd recommend having a sponge on the intake as a pre-filter. Filters can also go anaerobic due to accumulation of the picked up detritus, subsequent reduction of flow rates, reducing delivery of oxygen. Also, increased detritus leads to increase in heterotrophic facultative anaerobs, which in oxygenated conditions steal the oxygen from the good bacs out-competing them for both oxygen and surface area. Heterotrophs aren't very efficient in ammonia conversion either and this leads to deteriorating water conditions.
Also, once the oxygen has been reduced sufficiently, heterotrophs start anaerobic decomposition in the filter, releasing hydrogen sulfide, ammonia and nitrite, which is the exact opposite of what one wants happening in the filter.
In terms of water changes, the more is always better, no matter the tank. The minimum would be 50% weekly. With plants you may get away with that amount just fine. But you'd need more plants...
Fish diet is also extremely important. I'd look into feeding them high quality food like New Life Spectrum or Northfin.
And one last thing, the gravel may work its way up the sand. Larger particles always end on top eventually. It is only an issue of aesthetics.
Good luck whatever you decide to do.
Deep sand beds and discus aren't the best of friends.
I can see the effort you have put into recreating a "natural" habitat for the fish but I'm going to come off as a little mean here; the setup isn't that ideal for discus. Let me explain:
Discus naturally come from slow-moving, warm water that is often higher in tannins and low in pH which is a double whammy against bacteria so as a result the waters are generally low in bacterial concentrations. They also are not the cleanest eaters and need to be fed frequently as youngsters to really get the best growth out of them. This creates a lot of leftover debris, and with a deep substrate it can accumulate and produce a lot more bacteria than discus are naturally accustomed to. Thus having the potential to make them sick. If drop the substrate level and vacuum it with every water change it would reduce that risk significantly. For this reason almost all of the serious keepers my side run bare bottomed tanks that are cleaned daily. Please try and keep this in mind
As for water changes, discus need lots in a tank that size. I'd recommend getting a liquid test kit and make sure to keep Nitrate <20 all the time. 50% a week on a 55g won't cut it for discus. Also don't feed beef heart! It leads to accumulation of fat around the organs which is no good.
Apart from all that, good luck!
I can see the effort you have put into recreating a "natural" habitat for the fish but I'm going to come off as a little mean here; the setup isn't that ideal for discus. Let me explain:
Discus naturally come from slow-moving, warm water that is often higher in tannins and low in pH which is a double whammy against bacteria so as a result the waters are generally low in bacterial concentrations. They also are not the cleanest eaters and need to be fed frequently as youngsters to really get the best growth out of them. This creates a lot of leftover debris, and with a deep substrate it can accumulate and produce a lot more bacteria than discus are naturally accustomed to. Thus having the potential to make them sick. If drop the substrate level and vacuum it with every water change it would reduce that risk significantly. For this reason almost all of the serious keepers my side run bare bottomed tanks that are cleaned daily. Please try and keep this in mind
As for water changes, discus need lots in a tank that size. I'd recommend getting a liquid test kit and make sure to keep Nitrate <20 all the time. 50% a week on a 55g won't cut it for discus. Also don't feed beef heart! It leads to accumulation of fat around the organs which is no good.
Apart from all that, good luck!
This topic is very controversial and I think the OP has found out that already.
I personally believe that there is a gap in knowledge in fish keeping in regards to how water quality is best maintained, and a lot of the issues, especially for discuss fish keepers promoting sterile tanks, the actual problems arise due to lack of redundancy mechanisms in those tanks.
You can't have a stable tank in my opinion that runs on a clogged from beef heart filter and no other means to take a hit in increased toxins bar a water change. In such tanks any heavy feeding can trigger water quality issues.
Water quality issues are the trigger for diseases and diseases happen due to weakened immune systems in 99% of the cases. Fish have natural and adaptable mechanisms to ward off all types of pathogens but they can't keep up in tanks with bad water quality. This is applicable to all fish but some are tougher animals and take a bit longer to kill...Generally, any filter only tanks are open to large water quality fluctuations.
I do agree though that any fish, discus or not, would benefit from more frequent water changes, especially growing fish and tanks subjected to larger feedings. Tanks should also be on the light side of stocking long term as overstocked tanks would lead to disease outbreaks no matter what. The weakest links die out first...but the rest follow way earlier than their potential life spans.
I've been entertained by discus fishkeepers for years
Bare bottom tanks and the largest treatment and diseases section than any other type of forums...I wonder why... 
In terms of water changes with discus, I found the below threads I read a while ago very interesting. They were posted on simplydiscus. Keep in mind they're about whirling disease but the consensus is that reducing the amount of water changes is what actually stopped that "mystery diseases"
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?115050-Whirling-Disease/page2
There is a similar thread below, extremely long I warn you, where the OP had an odd issue of fish smashing themselves into the glass and killing themselves, along with exhibiting some other signs of unidentified and mysterious "disease" The discussion below, involving some very experienced discus keepers, progresses into treating those fish with several different medications...without much success...
The discussion starts in April 2011 and goes on for about 4 months. In 2018 the same OP, now administrator on the forum, updated the thread advising that to prevent that same "disease" they experienced in 2011 when they first started keeping discus, they now do water changes no bigger than 40% at a time....
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?87723-Very-Suddenly-Sick&highlight=suddenly+sick
I agree on the fish diet, beef heart should not be fed to discus, or any fish for that matter, unless you want them to die prematurely.
I personally believe that there is a gap in knowledge in fish keeping in regards to how water quality is best maintained, and a lot of the issues, especially for discuss fish keepers promoting sterile tanks, the actual problems arise due to lack of redundancy mechanisms in those tanks.
You can't have a stable tank in my opinion that runs on a clogged from beef heart filter and no other means to take a hit in increased toxins bar a water change. In such tanks any heavy feeding can trigger water quality issues.
Water quality issues are the trigger for diseases and diseases happen due to weakened immune systems in 99% of the cases. Fish have natural and adaptable mechanisms to ward off all types of pathogens but they can't keep up in tanks with bad water quality. This is applicable to all fish but some are tougher animals and take a bit longer to kill...Generally, any filter only tanks are open to large water quality fluctuations.
I do agree though that any fish, discus or not, would benefit from more frequent water changes, especially growing fish and tanks subjected to larger feedings. Tanks should also be on the light side of stocking long term as overstocked tanks would lead to disease outbreaks no matter what. The weakest links die out first...but the rest follow way earlier than their potential life spans.
I've been entertained by discus fishkeepers for years
Bare bottom tanks and the largest treatment and diseases section than any other type of forums...I wonder why... In terms of water changes with discus, I found the below threads I read a while ago very interesting. They were posted on simplydiscus. Keep in mind they're about whirling disease but the consensus is that reducing the amount of water changes is what actually stopped that "mystery diseases"
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?115050-Whirling-Disease/page2
There is a similar thread below, extremely long I warn you, where the OP had an odd issue of fish smashing themselves into the glass and killing themselves, along with exhibiting some other signs of unidentified and mysterious "disease" The discussion below, involving some very experienced discus keepers, progresses into treating those fish with several different medications...without much success...
The discussion starts in April 2011 and goes on for about 4 months. In 2018 the same OP, now administrator on the forum, updated the thread advising that to prevent that same "disease" they experienced in 2011 when they first started keeping discus, they now do water changes no bigger than 40% at a time....
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?87723-Very-Suddenly-Sick&highlight=suddenly+sick
I agree on the fish diet, beef heart should not be fed to discus, or any fish for that matter, unless you want them to die prematurely.
Thank you for all of the different opinions that have been suggested. I test for ammonia and ph and that’s pretty much it and have been doing weekly water changes of 50/75% on all of my aquariums over the past decade. I’ve kept fresh and saltwater tanks successfully so I’m not just some dumb ass getting a prettty fish for the first time. It just so happens my original predator aquarium which is now housing discus went through a “transformation phase” and I was lazy and didn’t remove the gravel. However, I may be paying for it now but I plan to combat the problem with toxins with continuing to add more live plants and with my weekly water changes with a light raking and evening out of the sand as it goes. Don’t you agree that larger discus, say for instance I decide to house four or five four inch discus to my current setup.. you are telling me they would not do well? I’m sorry but I don’t think this has to be as big of a deal as it’s bern played out for to be. I’m just looking for some combat techniques for a mistake I clearly admitted to making.
Anyways guys, what do you think about adding lots of more live plants to oxygenate to substrate. I just want to know my babies are safe.
Anyways guys, what do you think about adding lots of more live plants to oxygenate to substrate. I just want to know my babies are safe.
I’m actually on my way to a new aquarium store in the minis area, now. I’m going to pick up some larger guys since the current little girl I have is doing so well.
