The Hypocrite thread mbu

[puffykid]

Don't worry I don't take debates personally. What I meant by the large territories that these fish cover is that evolution has adapted this fish to become a very large messy fish because they come from one of the largest, deepest rivers on this earth. This means that even if they are able to like you said get all the food in one location and find the holy grail, that doesn't take away from the fact that they live in an environment where their waste is removed instantly by the current something that we can't replicate in aquariums. Even if we over filtrate that doesn't remove the nitrates that build up in the tank that these massive fish aren't use to dealing with because again the current takes these away instantly. Nitrates aren't good for the fish, and although there isn't a defined limit to what is considered bad I feel that a fish that has evolved to live in a place where wastes are removed easily can't easily cope with conditions where wastes aren't removed as quickly hence again why I don't believe the 1000g minimum is that far-fetched.

But people have shown that these fish get much larger then presumed average of 26inches. There was a guy on our forum that had his mbu over 30inches

Even if you only want to consider its habitat, it should give you an example of the amount of water turn over this puffer is use to experiencing. It comes from the Congo river which is the deepest river in the world and the 3rd largest discharge river in the world. To give you an example of the turn over rate in water that this fish is use to.

Also to counter that a mbu is suppose to just sit around in his tank all day here

". They are "seekers" using their very good eyesight to find snails and crustaceans for most of the day"

they are seekers which means that they are suppose to be active hunters.
"since dogs have been domesticated to require less than that of a wild dog, eat dry staple instead of raw, pee and poop in a given spot by it's commander and do tricks wouldn't the MBU, over a given length of time, become domesticated and accept life in the confines of which a "master" has given it and live happily in captivity?"

While I agree that dogs are given much less space then that of a wild dog, can't you at least agree that even with that reduced space they still get several times their size and space then a fish of equal size would get?

again most dogs get not only the back yard to run around in but are taken on walks if not daily at least weekly which gives these animals much more space to exist then a mbu would in a 400g tank

 

[puffykid]

Also could you please list your source and the list of dogs that are happy just laying around the house not moving?

and also show me a source that says that dogs laying around the house and only eating is actually good for the dog and natural

 

[rgonzales]

What makes a mbu better than any other fish. I think 400-500 gallons is reasonable. And as far as waste build up we have drip systems and planted sumps that can help with those problems

 

[eklikewhoa]

Gonna work backwards on this...

Yeah, I agree to an extent that dogs do get a bit more freedom in comparison with length/size in mind. It's really hard to debate with this analogy though cause the dog thing can go a hundred different ways and we're talking about an animal that is far from "wild caught".

Now for the replication of a large body of water in the sense that "nitrates" build up and waste accumalates. If this is your angle for the argument (Not saying it isn't a good one but just think there are other reasons one could bring up why not to keep a MBU that would be harder to debate) I will say that there are many ways around this.

Here's my theory... outside of the physical size causing restraints on turning around etc., waste is the main concern for the well being of the fish, they are big time messy eaters and the waste acumalates which hinders the overall health of the fish which would shorten it's life span and reduce the healthy growth of the fish. Now what if the person is dedicated enough to provide the fish with a tank that is merely adequate for swimming around comfortably based on a humans definition but did a constant drip system with Aerobic filters to reduce nitrates that might present itself along with a plant refugium. Now this would negate your stand point about not being able to provide quality water for the specimen as this would never allow the rise of nitrates if in fact that is what would cause ill effects on the fish.

Now humor me with this, on a constant drip system or constant water change system the fish waste would never have time to break down therefore never effecting water quality but yet the minerals/vits/nutrients in the water column utilized by the fish is constantly being replenished so in theory that would "trick", for lack of a better term, the MBU's body/organs into thinking it is in fact in a larger body of water not to be effected by it's own waste.

I think as long as the person can provide the proper nutrition, keep up with the maintenance, and do the best one is able to then I don't see a problem in a person not having a 1000+gallon tank to house some of them even though they are only 1-3" as of late. Obviously the mass isn't going to stop importing/exporting them and would it not be more cruel to see multiple MBUs in one tank or single MBUs confined to 10g at the LFS?

Now to jump back onto your Dog analogy, why can't a person buy a small MBU and upgrade it's home as it grows? Is that not what we do for our dogs? We don't go out and get the largest crate possible or the largest collars from the beginning and definitely don't allow for a pup to roam a mass piece of land just cause. I know if you were to try and attempt crate training on a pup using the largest crate you would be shampooing that pup more than yourself.

I found this site again due to my interest in the MBU as well as other "monster" fish. I myself will say that I like to learn from other's experience and read from everyone's point of view and opinions as it collects a diverse body of knowledge for myself and with this the hobby grows and better provides for the species we confine to glass cages and attempt to give it the best we can based on this knowledge. Healthy debate broadens one's view point greatly regardless of where you stand on the topic.

 

[rgonzales]

Wow q, long post. At least you were on the same train of thought as me

 

[eklikewhoa]

Also could you please list your source and the list of dogs that are happy just laying around the house not moving?

and also show me a source that says that dogs laying around the house and only eating is actually good for the dog and natural

my source... Me from personal experience along with several friends and their personal experience. Are we going to group dogs as a whole or concentrate on specific breeds as we have done with the MBU in comparison to all other fish that probably should be getting the same treatment or better but does not since it's only MBUs most want to focus on?

My english bulldog lays on his bed most of his waking day. He will get up to eat, drink, piss, poop and bark at the neighbors. If it is hot outside he will not budge and you literally have to carry him out. If it is raining he will not go out. When you trick him to go out to take care of business he runs out but quickly comes back to the door and lets himself back in and lays down.

Of course if I let him eat all he could possibly eat and allowed it coupled with his behavior it would not be healthy, but I limit his feedings and force him to play with me.

Now this is just not my bully but just about every bully I have ever met. There are some other breeds of dogs that I know personally and although not typical of the breed they are just as lazy.

as stated, using dogs in your analogy is really flawed IMO since unlike a fish being kept in a glass cage with no means of telling you it hates life other than dieing, dogs will show you when they are unhappy.

 

[puffykid]

"Healthy debate broadens one's view point greatly regardless of where you stand on the topic." +1 totally agree with this.

Nitrates however are removed by anaerobic bacteria and even in the environment are only removed by a select few microbes, so the only way that people are able to get rid of nitrates is through the physical removal of them in the process of a wc. In the wild the nitrates aren't broken down but removed due to the movement of the water carrying them away and are only later broken down in an anaerobic setting.


I feel though that people can't do enough wc's on a smaller tank to remove the amount of nitrates for a mbu to be considered happy, and this is one of the main reasons why I feel like they shouldn't be in trade at all. But like you mentioned that is not likely to change unless something drastic happened.

 

[rgonzales]

"Healthy debate broadens one's view point greatly regardless of where you stand on the topic." +1 totally agree with this.

Nitrates however are removed by anaerobic bacteria and even in the environment are only removed by a select few microbes, so the only way that people are able to get rid of nitrates is through the physical removal of them in the process of a wc. In the wild the nitrates aren't broken down but removed due to the movement of the water carrying them away and are only later broken down in an anaerobic setting.


I feel though that people can't do enough wc's on a smaller tank to remove the amount of nitrates for a mbu to be considered happy, and this is one of the main reasons why I feel like they shouldn't be in trade at all. But like you mentioned that is not likely to change unless something drastic happened.

Plant refugiums would break down nitrates. I have a friend who uses that coupled with a drip system for his group of rays and his water is pristine

 

[puffykid]

"As stated, using dogs in your analogy is really flawed IMO since unlike a fish being kept in a glass cage with no means of telling you it hates life other than dieing, dogs will show you when they are unhappy."

Idk if I can fully agree with this statement I feel like more the fish is telling you its not happy but people just can't read the signs.

I feel like a fish that glass surfs a lot or appears lethargic and only moves around when it's feeding time is a clear sign that the fish isn't as happy as it could be.

For example watch a nature show where they show fish, besides fish that are classified as lurkers where have you seen on one of those shows a fish that just sits around?

 

[eklikewhoa]

I will say this. I would rather educate those willing to take the time to listen rather than instantly bash/haze a new member that is interested in possibly saving a MBU from a LFS and attempting to provide it a loving home.

Searching endlessly on this site about the MBU I had to sort through an onslaught of constant... "MBU needs a small Lake to live healthy" or "there is no way you can provide for a MBU long term". Well, sorry to say but if that person is interested in an MBU he/she probably saw one at the LFS, housed in a 10-20g tank, probably only fed enough to keep it alive, and now has attempted to research about it and take the time.

Now instead of a MBU being saved by a potential owner, the "Elitists" trying to save a MBU has now dealt that MBU's fate by discouraging a fellow hobbyist.