This guy preaching not using tank water to clean media
- Thread starter jason longboard
- Start date
A partial re-post of mine from a similar discussion that took place in the past here on MFK….
I think that this hobby can be a simple, or as complicated, as one wants to make it.
I’m a simple guy which is why I tend to apply the KISS (keep it simple stupid) method to fish keeping as much as possible. I also like to add a layer of redundancy where I can, more than 1 filter (in case filter fails), more than 1 heater (at lower wattage so as not to cook fish if/when a thermostat sticks ON) , everything plugged into a GFCI power bar or receptacle, or dedicated GFCI breaker - with a grounding probe in each tank.
NOT that I would EVER suggest to others to do this with their bio-media, and their tanks, but ....... I clean my sponges, and finer filter media directly under the tap with 2 ppm chloramine. I understand that I am killing off a percentage of bio-bacteria while doing this, but I honestly don't care if the bacteria is almost completely wiped clean each time that I do this, because I have a large bag of very well established (20+ yrs established) sintered glass bio-media in each filter that I protect like the crown jewels. Each tank contains 3 large bags of well-seasoned bio-media.
Those bio-media bags get a light swish in a bucket filled with clean, dechlorinated with Seachem Safe, tap water. I also clean ALL filters at the same time, on the same day, in each tank. Again, this is what I do, with my filters, and my tanks, and my species of fish, because I know exactly what I am doing. I would never recommend this to others. Way too many variables involved to second guess someone else's set up from afar.
One of my large bio-media bags is enough to kick start a 100 gallon tank, instantly. Just add water & fish. I would NEVER clean that media anywhere near ANYTHING that could even remotely be considered toxic. I too have learned my fair share of lessons, the hard way.
Now if I had a 0.1 ppm chlorine residual coming out of my tap, I wouldn't be the least bit worried about dechlorinator, and would probably do exactly like some of the folks on youtube, or at the very most use a weak sodium thiosulfate solution for water changes, and for cleaning media. I don't have plants to help remove free ammonia (NH3) which is also very toxic to fish, so I use a water conditioner that can render NH3 safe for fish (Seachem Safe), because with each water change with chloramine, once the chlorine/ammonia bond is split, free ammonia is left behind. Free ammonia is like second hand smoke, even a little causes harm, and can have a cumulative effect. I think that this hobby can be a simple, or as complicated, as one wants to make it.
If someone feels that the chlorine and/or chloramine coming out of their taps won't cause any issues in their set ups, or their bio-media, then by all means go for it. I also do massive water changes in the 80-90% range, and I have high pH, and at the higher pH values free ammonia becomes a lot more toxic to fish. Add higher temps to that equation and things become even more deadly, if one isn't careful. I hesitate to even mention how large of water changes I do, so as not to influence someone that keeps more sensitive species, or doesn't understand their own personal limitations, like I do. I have kept species of fish in the past where 30% water changes were pretty much the breaking point for their stress level, so that's as high as I went.
This is why is it so important to for each & every hobbyist to understand their limitations, with their set ups, and their fish, and then live by those limitations.
I think that this hobby can be a simple, or as complicated, as one wants to make it.
I’m a simple guy which is why I tend to apply the KISS (keep it simple stupid) method to fish keeping as much as possible. I also like to add a layer of redundancy where I can, more than 1 filter (in case filter fails), more than 1 heater (at lower wattage so as not to cook fish if/when a thermostat sticks ON) , everything plugged into a GFCI power bar or receptacle, or dedicated GFCI breaker - with a grounding probe in each tank.
NOT that I would EVER suggest to others to do this with their bio-media, and their tanks, but ....... I clean my sponges, and finer filter media directly under the tap with 2 ppm chloramine. I understand that I am killing off a percentage of bio-bacteria while doing this, but I honestly don't care if the bacteria is almost completely wiped clean each time that I do this, because I have a large bag of very well established (20+ yrs established) sintered glass bio-media in each filter that I protect like the crown jewels. Each tank contains 3 large bags of well-seasoned bio-media.
Those bio-media bags get a light swish in a bucket filled with clean, dechlorinated with Seachem Safe, tap water. I also clean ALL filters at the same time, on the same day, in each tank. Again, this is what I do, with my filters, and my tanks, and my species of fish, because I know exactly what I am doing. I would never recommend this to others. Way too many variables involved to second guess someone else's set up from afar.
One of my large bio-media bags is enough to kick start a 100 gallon tank, instantly. Just add water & fish. I would NEVER clean that media anywhere near ANYTHING that could even remotely be considered toxic. I too have learned my fair share of lessons, the hard way.
Now if I had a 0.1 ppm chlorine residual coming out of my tap, I wouldn't be the least bit worried about dechlorinator, and would probably do exactly like some of the folks on youtube, or at the very most use a weak sodium thiosulfate solution for water changes, and for cleaning media. I don't have plants to help remove free ammonia (NH3) which is also very toxic to fish, so I use a water conditioner that can render NH3 safe for fish (Seachem Safe), because with each water change with chloramine, once the chlorine/ammonia bond is split, free ammonia is left behind. Free ammonia is like second hand smoke, even a little causes harm, and can have a cumulative effect. I think that this hobby can be a simple, or as complicated, as one wants to make it.
If someone feels that the chlorine and/or chloramine coming out of their taps won't cause any issues in their set ups, or their bio-media, then by all means go for it. I also do massive water changes in the 80-90% range, and I have high pH, and at the higher pH values free ammonia becomes a lot more toxic to fish. Add higher temps to that equation and things become even more deadly, if one isn't careful. I hesitate to even mention how large of water changes I do, so as not to influence someone that keeps more sensitive species, or doesn't understand their own personal limitations, like I do. I have kept species of fish in the past where 30% water changes were pretty much the breaking point for their stress level, so that's as high as I went.
This is why is it so important to for each & every hobbyist to understand their limitations, with their set ups, and their fish, and then live by those limitations.
I use primarily Poret and box filters on my tanks (and not PITA to clean canisters). I clean box filters by removing the dirty fluff and replacing with new (I keep some gravel or lava rocks in each one). For Poret (walls and sponge filters), I rinse periodically in tap water.
Here's the advice that Stephan Tanner (M.S. degree in Ecology and Molecular Biology and a Ph.D. in Human Molecular Genetics, who runs Swisstropicals) gives on this topic.
Q: how do rinse Poret® foam sheets?
A: the easiest way is outside in the yard or driveway using a garden hose. Simply bang the sheet flat on the ground several times (Note: I recommend not wearing your best outfit doing this) to shake out the filter sludge, then rinse with the hose; repeat until the water coming out is relatively clean. Don’t overdo it! Sufficient microorganisms will survive this procedure to quickly re-establish the biology of the filter. It does not matter if you use cold or chlorine-treated water! The often repeated notion that this process would kill all the filter organisms is complete nonsense, because the residual chlorine concentration in drinking water is way too low to kill them.
www.swisstropicals.com
Here's the advice that Stephan Tanner (M.S. degree in Ecology and Molecular Biology and a Ph.D. in Human Molecular Genetics, who runs Swisstropicals) gives on this topic.
Q: how do rinse Poret® foam sheets?
A: the easiest way is outside in the yard or driveway using a garden hose. Simply bang the sheet flat on the ground several times (Note: I recommend not wearing your best outfit doing this) to shake out the filter sludge, then rinse with the hose; repeat until the water coming out is relatively clean. Don’t overdo it! Sufficient microorganisms will survive this procedure to quickly re-establish the biology of the filter. It does not matter if you use cold or chlorine-treated water! The often repeated notion that this process would kill all the filter organisms is complete nonsense, because the residual chlorine concentration in drinking water is way too low to kill them.
FAQ - SWISSTROPICALS
Frequently Asked Questions After you read these FAQs and still have questions, please feel free to email me. Tip, you are more likely to receive a quick answer, if you ask a specific question. Thanks! FYI: We do not ship free Poret® foam samples. Here is why: “Looking at it” does not tell you...
Hello; I tend to do as the guy in the video does most of the time. I throw away disposable filter media and replace with new. The permanent media I will rinse with tap water or sometimes swish in old tank water if the outside weather is bad. I do not put tank detritus into my septic system is a difference.
It is my understanding the beneficial bacteria (BB) are sessile. That means they form a film which sticks to surfaces has been my take. A light rinsing with tap water should not dislodge the colonies.
Contact with the water treatment chemicals is brief. Does some percentage of the BB get killed? Perhaps, but some tradeoffs come into play. A large amount of the gunk in the reuseable filter media is solid fish waste and other dead organic material. A gentle rinse in old tank water will not remove much of this detritus. A rinse under tap water as in the video removes much more of this gunk. Take your pick. I pick less of the detritus to go back into my tanks.
As far as the BB loss goes i agree with the guy in the video. There is not, as far as i know, some reason why the BB will only be found in a filter. The colonies form on surfaces everywhere in the tank, the inside of tubes, the decor and all. Loss of a small number of BB colonies ought not make a big difference unless the tank is on a knife edge in terms of being overstocked. In HI density stocked tanks some extra precautions might be taken. I have stuck the extra sponge part of sponge filters in the filter chambers of tanks and let them load up with BB. Then can throw them in a new tank as needed. Maybe hang bags of ceramic media in a mesh bags in some tanks to move around.
It is my understanding the beneficial bacteria (BB) are sessile. That means they form a film which sticks to surfaces has been my take. A light rinsing with tap water should not dislodge the colonies.
Contact with the water treatment chemicals is brief. Does some percentage of the BB get killed? Perhaps, but some tradeoffs come into play. A large amount of the gunk in the reuseable filter media is solid fish waste and other dead organic material. A gentle rinse in old tank water will not remove much of this detritus. A rinse under tap water as in the video removes much more of this gunk. Take your pick. I pick less of the detritus to go back into my tanks.
As far as the BB loss goes i agree with the guy in the video. There is not, as far as i know, some reason why the BB will only be found in a filter. The colonies form on surfaces everywhere in the tank, the inside of tubes, the decor and all. Loss of a small number of BB colonies ought not make a big difference unless the tank is on a knife edge in terms of being overstocked. In HI density stocked tanks some extra precautions might be taken. I have stuck the extra sponge part of sponge filters in the filter chambers of tanks and let them load up with BB. Then can throw them in a new tank as needed. Maybe hang bags of ceramic media in a mesh bags in some tanks to move around.
What is complete nonsense, is Stephan Tanner's assumption that ALL tap water residual world-wide, or even USA wide, is equal.
Another re-post of mine, from this past discussion regarding tis same subject.......
Washing Your Bio | MonsterFishKeepers.com
Riled me up some? Lofty proclamations? LOL
Jeff, just for the record, how you or anyone else cleans their bio media is entirely up to them. I wasn't the only person that came to the same conclusion early on in this thread.
"I agree with RD that your tap water disinfection residual will determine the bacterial die off, if/when you rinse bio media in tap water."
That was a post from
duanes
, a microbiologist that worked for a water treatment facility in the USA.
Early on dogofwar posted (in red bolded font) some text from the Poret foam company vendor that implied how using a garden hose was a non issue for EVERYONE, not some people, not just those with low residual levels, but EVERYONE because according to his non-expert opinion on water distribution systems: "The often repeated notion that this process would kill all the filter organisms is complete nonsense, because the residual chlorine concentration in drinking water is way too low to kill them all."
Says the doctor whose cities chlorine residual turns out to be 0.5-0.8 ppm. I took the time to actually look it up.
That comment, and those that followed from the same member, implied that EVERYONE has drinking water with residuals way too low to kill them all, and that a good blast from a garden hose would be safe, for EVERYONE, because well, it has been working for Dr. Tanner, personally, and his tap water @ 0.5-0.8 ppm chlorine.
That same academic scholar went on to say, "Sufficient microorganisms will survive this procedure to quickly re-establish the biology of the filter."
I never questioned the fact that even with high disinfection residuals a blast from a garden hose would most likely not kill 100% of ones bio-media, and that eventually the numbers would bounce back - but eventually is not good enough for some folks, and their set ups. This is where generalizations can get a person (or their fish) in trouble. As I pointed out earlier on, nitrifying bacteria are relatively slow at multiplying. It seemed like a rather cavalier attitude for an academic to take, with an EPA max residual of 4 ppm chloramine. (over 5 times the residual average of 0.7 ppm found in Dr. Tanners water report)
It's not a case of me not approving of anything, it's a case of outside of my own tap water, without more data I can't say one way or the other what is likely to work, or not work, for someone else. Why this is so difficult for you to grasp is beyond me? The only thing that I can think of in my current foggy haze, is that when I say residual, you are taking that to mean what's left "after" the media is hosed clean. Maybe?
Esoxlucius gets it. That is exactly what I am referring to. The disinfectant residual prior to spraying or washing, that will be the ultimate test, not rinsing off any residual after the fact. That makes almost no sense.
So Jeff, now you know why hoses came up in this discussion, it had nothing to do with your hose, or me not approving of this manner of cleaning. That was imagined by you. It had to do with me disagreeing with Dr. Tanner's comments, that another member posted here, that involved a garden hose.
I thought that was pretty obvious by my earlier comments.
Another re-post of mine, from this past discussion regarding tis same subject.......
Washing Your Bio | MonsterFishKeepers.com
Riled me up some? Lofty proclamations? LOL
Jeff, just for the record, how you or anyone else cleans their bio media is entirely up to them. I wasn't the only person that came to the same conclusion early on in this thread.
"I agree with RD that your tap water disinfection residual will determine the bacterial die off, if/when you rinse bio media in tap water."
That was a post from
duanes
, a microbiologist that worked for a water treatment facility in the USA.Early on dogofwar posted (in red bolded font) some text from the Poret foam company vendor that implied how using a garden hose was a non issue for EVERYONE, not some people, not just those with low residual levels, but EVERYONE because according to his non-expert opinion on water distribution systems: "The often repeated notion that this process would kill all the filter organisms is complete nonsense, because the residual chlorine concentration in drinking water is way too low to kill them all."
Says the doctor whose cities chlorine residual turns out to be 0.5-0.8 ppm. I took the time to actually look it up.
That comment, and those that followed from the same member, implied that EVERYONE has drinking water with residuals way too low to kill them all, and that a good blast from a garden hose would be safe, for EVERYONE, because well, it has been working for Dr. Tanner, personally, and his tap water @ 0.5-0.8 ppm chlorine.
That same academic scholar went on to say, "Sufficient microorganisms will survive this procedure to quickly re-establish the biology of the filter."
I never questioned the fact that even with high disinfection residuals a blast from a garden hose would most likely not kill 100% of ones bio-media, and that eventually the numbers would bounce back - but eventually is not good enough for some folks, and their set ups. This is where generalizations can get a person (or their fish) in trouble. As I pointed out earlier on, nitrifying bacteria are relatively slow at multiplying. It seemed like a rather cavalier attitude for an academic to take, with an EPA max residual of 4 ppm chloramine. (over 5 times the residual average of 0.7 ppm found in Dr. Tanners water report)
It's not a case of me not approving of anything, it's a case of outside of my own tap water, without more data I can't say one way or the other what is likely to work, or not work, for someone else. Why this is so difficult for you to grasp is beyond me? The only thing that I can think of in my current foggy haze, is that when I say residual, you are taking that to mean what's left "after" the media is hosed clean. Maybe?
Esoxlucius gets it. That is exactly what I am referring to. The disinfectant residual prior to spraying or washing, that will be the ultimate test, not rinsing off any residual after the fact. That makes almost no sense.
So Jeff, now you know why hoses came up in this discussion, it had nothing to do with your hose, or me not approving of this manner of cleaning. That was imagined by you. It had to do with me disagreeing with Dr. Tanner's comments, that another member posted here, that involved a garden hose.
I thought that was pretty obvious by my earlier comments.
That youtube vid, and some of the various comments in it, are a prime example why I rarely watch anything fishkeeping related on youtube.
I do watch/listen to a number of youtube channels on a regular basis, just not fishkeeping related. Way too much
to sort through.
I do watch/listen to a number of youtube channels on a regular basis, just not fishkeeping related. Way too much
to sort through.
This is funny and ironic to me, since the chlorine/chloramine concentration in treated drinking water is specifically formulated to kill bacteria and other microorganisms.I use primarily Poret and box filters on my tanks (and not PITA to clean canisters). I clean box filters by removing the dirty fluff and replacing with new (I keep some gravel or lava rocks in each one). For Poret (walls and sponge filters), I rinse periodically in tap water.
Here's the advice that Stephan Tanner (M.S. degree in Ecology and Molecular Biology and a Ph.D. in Human Molecular Genetics, who runs Swisstropicals) gives on this topic.
Q: how do rinse Poret® foam sheets?
A: the easiest way is outside in the yard or driveway using a garden hose. Simply bang the sheet flat on the ground several times (Note: I recommend not wearing your best outfit doing this) to shake out the filter sludge, then rinse with the hose; repeat until the water coming out is relatively clean. Don’t overdo it! Sufficient microorganisms will survive this procedure to quickly re-establish the biology of the filter. It does not matter if you use cold or chlorine-treated water! The often repeated notion that this process would kill all the filter organisms is complete nonsense, because the residual chlorine concentration in drinking water is way too low to kill them.
FAQ - SWISSTROPICALS
Frequently Asked Questions After you read these FAQs and still have questions, please feel free to email me. Tip, you are more likely to receive a quick answer, if you ask a specific question. Thanks! FYI: We do not ship free Poret® foam samples. Here is why: “Looking at it” does not tell you...
Here's an interesting experiment that everyone should try once:
Pick a topic with which you are comfortable and familiar, something you understand reasonably well; doesn't need to be aquarium-related. Now find a dozen or so YouTube videos on that topic, especially those that purport to be tutorials or educational vids. Watch 'em all. Then take note of how many of that dozen are...based upon your own knowledge and experience...completely, totally, utterly wrong. Out of twelve randomly-selected videos, I would be amazed if there weren't at least 2 or 3 that are pure gibberish, and a couple more that are not completely useless but which likely contain a fair bit of questionable "knowledge".
That being the case...why would anyone blindly trust the YouTube, or the internet in general, regarding topics with which they were not intimately familiar?
Pick a topic with which you are comfortable and familiar, something you understand reasonably well; doesn't need to be aquarium-related. Now find a dozen or so YouTube videos on that topic, especially those that purport to be tutorials or educational vids. Watch 'em all. Then take note of how many of that dozen are...based upon your own knowledge and experience...completely, totally, utterly wrong. Out of twelve randomly-selected videos, I would be amazed if there weren't at least 2 or 3 that are pure gibberish, and a couple more that are not completely useless but which likely contain a fair bit of questionable "knowledge".
That being the case...why would anyone blindly trust the YouTube, or the internet in general, regarding topics with which they were not intimately familiar?
