This is about Martinboys Piebald Zonatus

jgentry

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I've already went over this with Don and Gage. These Zonatus were wild caught and quite large when I bought them so he had them for a while before I even bought them. I know Don knows what he has and been doing this practicaly all his life. He is also amazed.
I have some very nice fish that came from DCT. My catemaco's are from him and are awesome fish. However from the pictures and what I know of his faciality (haven't been there yet but know a few people that have) a lot of his fish are grown in ponds. My question is after a few years and several spawns how do you know what fish are wild and what fish are not. Also it is extremely easy to have other fish find there way into the pond. So if these fish came from a pond it is very hard to know if they are pure or wild caught. This is not hating on Don or his fish, it's just the reality of it. With that said I've never been disappointed in the few fish I own that came from DCT,

Post some pics of the parents and fry when you get a chance. You might very well have something new and rare on your hands. I'll admit I'm very skeptical of them being real but you never know. I think it was australia that has piebald bifas? I remember seeing some piebald paratheraps from another country but I never saw how they bred them.
 

dogofwar

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What evidence - other than Don telling you - that the parents of the fish are wild?

I'd assume that whatever possible genetic sport that resulted in this mutation, that it would be recessive. And wouldn't show up unless both parents hold this recessive gene / mutation. That two random, wild fish would have this extremely unusual mutation seems to be pretty unlikely...

Siblings from pond / captive breeding, on the other hand...

Matt
 

fsirico

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I have some very nice fish that came from DCT. My catemaco's are from him and are awesome fish. However from the pictures and what I know of his faciality (haven't been there yet but know a few people that have) a lot of his fish are grown in ponds. My question is after a few years and several spawns how do you know what fish are wild and what fish are not. Also it is extremely easy to have other fish find there way into the pond. So if these fish came from a pond it is very hard to know if they are pure or wild caught. This is not hating on Don or his fish, it's just the reality of it. With that said I've never been disappointed in the few fish I own that came from DCT,

Post some pics of the parents and fry when you get a chance. You might very well have something new and rare on your hands. I'll admit I'm very skeptical of them being real but you never know. I think it was australia that has piebald bifas? I remember seeing some piebald paratheraps from another country but I never saw how they bred them.
I've go to Dons place offten and he has many seperater Vats he hold his fis in and there not mixed. I dont see any reason why Don would lie and tell me something thats not true. I will post pics of parents and fry later.
 

fsirico

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What evidence - other than Don telling you - that the parents of the fish are wild?

I'd assume that whatever possible genetic sport that resulted in this mutation, that it would be recessive. And wouldn't show up unless both parents hold this recessive gene / mutation. That two random, wild fish would have this extremely unusual mutation seems to be pretty unlikely...

Siblings from pond / captive breeding, on the other hand...

Matt
Yes maybe unlikely but not impossible. Because it does rarely happen.
 

Modest_Man

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dogofwar

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If someone other than Conkel was involved, I might be more predisposed to believe....

Matt

I've seen a piebald bifa. Ruck Fules had it... Most CA/SA cichlids can throw melanin lacking morphs (nics, Parachromis, Amphilophus, etc.) You'd be surprised how often these pop up (even in wild fish), the offspring just don't usually make it long enough to get noticed.

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?314399-Remember-me-“Pink”-Bifasciatus

Australia has piebald fenestratus, which came from non-Lago Catemaco lineage.

I want to believe...
 

fsirico

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I've seen a piebald bifa. Ruck Fules had it... Most CA/SA cichlids can throw melanin lacking morphs (nics, Parachromis, Amphilophus, etc.) You'd be surprised how often these pop up (even in wild fish), the offspring just don't usually make it long enough to get noticed.

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?314399-Remember-me-“Pink”-Bifasciatus

Australia has piebald fenestratus, which came from non-Lago Catemaco lineage.

I want to believe...
wow cool! See it can happen. I new everone was going to be sceptical but thats fine I was expecting that even Gage said it would be questioned alot. I will post pics tonight.
 

RD.

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You'd be surprised how often these pop up (even in wild fish), the offspring just don't usually make it long enough to get noticed.
I would agree on how often these pop up, if we were talking about aquarium strains of fish. Lots of things can surface when aquarium strains of fish are being bred, but in the case of aquarium strains, such as the piebald fenestratus bred in AU, there's no telling what the genetic make up was of the original breeders. Especially in AU where importing WC cichlids is not only very costly, but next to impossible for the average hobbyist. You can only import fish from countries approved by AQIS & you need to have a registered compliant quarantine room.

I recall a number of years ago where a breeder in AU had magically come up with some Malawi L. caeruleus (common yellow labs) that had no black in the fins - a solid yellow lab. They were an obvious hybrid, and already quite a common hybrid cross here in NA, but in his mind he was 100% certain the the fish were pure. After some serious pounding by a few individuals, myself included, the parents turned out to be an aquarium strain purchased at the LFS, just like the guy with the marbled fenes. Yeah sure, ok.

Or how about how all of the albino African cichlid strains that magically surfaced yrs ago, all within a few years of each other? Decades of producing millions of offspring in ponds in South Florida and not a single albino morph, then all of the sudden albinos of every genus & species suddenly pops up out of nowhere. Hmmmmm. All hybrids, some obvious, some not, but openly referred to as such by the commercial breeders in FL producing them, but in the hands of a hobbyists those 2, 3 or 6 albinos that surfaced in a spawn of "normal" parents that were created from 'pure' stock & were now being offered up for sale as though they had stumbled onto the holey grail of fish. Right. In every single case these fish were eventually traced back to aquarium strains.

Interestingly enough Ruck Fules piebald bifa was also purchased at a LFS, according to that link one which none other than Don Conkel was known to supply. Coinkydink? Hmmmmm. Maybe.

I'm not pointing any fingers at anyone, chain of command from the collectors at the lake/river to the exporter to the importers stateside isn't always 100% fool proof either. I have seen & heard some pretty wonky things taking place at the collection/export end of things over the years, and all an importer really has to go by is what they are being told by the exporter.

I agree with Matt;
That two random, wild fish would have this extremely unusual mutation seems to be pretty unlikely...
That, or if what Jamie states is true we should have been seeing this piebald gene expressing itself in a lot of other random zonatum breedings, which so far no one has.
 

jgentry

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Aug 22, 2008
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I've seen a piebald bifa. Ruck Fules had it... Most CA/SA cichlids can throw melanin lacking morphs (nics, Parachromis, Amphilophus, etc.) You'd be surprised how often these pop up (even in wild fish), the offspring just don't usually make it long enough to get noticed.

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?314399-Remember-me-“Pink”-Bifasciatus

Australia has piebald fenestratus, which came from non-Lago Catemaco lineage.

I want to believe...
Thanks for the link. I knew I remembered seeing that somewhere. My main concern is that most paratheraps do not change color when very small. Even the catemaco's are decent size before they change. What size are the fry and when did they change?
 
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