Treating Hexamita aka Spironucleus

[luohanfan]

I have used epsom salts along with metro for a few years..
The epsom salts only purge a lot of the hex, they will multiply again if they are not killed off with metro or alike..

I had a pretty good read of your links, and a few others just to make sure, but i see nowhere where it says that magnesium sulphate actually kills all the Hexamita ?
Did i miss something?
If so could you point me to the info that justifies this claim of magnesium sulphate killing all stains of hex at this dosage?

Hex will only build an immunity to metro if not treated properly, if dosed correctly and treated for the full course of treatment, there is no potential for issues regarding hex building immunity..
If used properly, metro will kill 100% of the hexamita..

 

[RD.]

Yes, you did miss something. Approx 10 pages worth of posts that were removed when this became a sticky. Many people have now used this treatment successfully, including myself, with no recurring bouts of spironucleus vortens. (which is the correct name for this ailment)

Hexamita is a catch all term often used to describe the various protozoa that trigger bloat, and/or stringy white/clear feces in tropical fish. In the vast majority of cases, those where clinical studies have identified the actual flagellates involved (specifically in cichlids), it has been Spironucleus vortens, not Hexamita or Octomitus species as previously believed. While it appears that much of the earlier identifications in ornamental species of fish may be erroneous, the overall treatment is pretty much identical.

Certainly epsom salt has been used by numerous hobbyists over the years, but not to treat the fish via its feed. Treating via the feed does a lot more than just "purge" some of these internal flagellates, it totally eradicates them when used properly.


Studies have shown that when treating fish, prolonged use, or excessive use of metronidazole can lead to severe organ damage. According to Edward Noga et al and the data available in treating fish with metro via their food, the rate should be a min of .25% at a rate of 1% body weight per day (for 5-10 days) up to a maximum of 1% metro at a rate of 1% body weight per day, for a maximum of 3 days. I'm guessing that most hobbyists just take a shot in the dark as far as a dosage rate when treating their fish with Metro.

The beauty of magnesium sulphate is that when used to treat certain internal flagellates it has been shown to be just as effective as metro and has none of the drawbacks associated with most medications. (such as potential organ damage) Excess magnesium sulphate simply gets excreted from the fishes system, and just like metro, it will effectively kill 100% of spironucleus vortens, which is typically the internal parasite most often found in tropical fish, including flowerhorn.

2+ yrs later, and no recurring bouts of spiro, this fish has been as healthy as a horse since he recieved the treatment described in this thread.
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?436561-Red-Diamond-from-Zero-to-Hero

If you choose not to use magnesium sulphate, and prefer to stick to using outdated terms, and outdated treatments, that's certainly your prerogative. The intention of this topic was to offer hobbyists a much safer, and far cheaper, alternative treatment.


HTH

 

[luohanfan]

I would quite happily change treatments if there was scientific evidence, but i found none in the above links, or in any studies i have previously done..
Could you please provide links of such studies, and to where you got the above treatment please?

 

[RD.]

Scientific evidence? On what, treating flowerhorn for spironucleus vortens? LOL

The vast majority of flowerhorn keepers, and fish keepers in general, still refer to internal parasites as "hexamita", which is the only reason I even use that term on fish forums as most people have never even heard of spiro. Today, there is plenty of scientific evidence that proves exactly what I just stated, which was;

In the vast majority of cases, those where clinical studies have identified the actual flagellates involved (specifically in cichlids), it has been Spironucleus vortens, not Hexamita or Octomitus species as previously believed. While it appears that much of the earlier identifications in ornamental species of fish may be erroneous, the overall treatment is pretty much identical.

I suggest you go back & re-read the initial post in this discussion, it's rather clear as to how & where I got the information regarding this treatment method. Numerous MFK members have now successfully used this treatment, on numerous species of cichlids, including flowerhorns.

If you are waiting for some in-depth clinical trial or study involving ornamental species of fish, including flowerhorn, I suspect that you'll be waiting a very long time. The ornamental fish industry isn't exactly well known for utilizing the most safest forms of medication when treating tropical fish, as they aren't interested in longevity, past the point of sale. Much easier & time/cost effective for large commercial operations just to hit the fish with the most powerful med available via the water column, and let god sort the survivors out.

 

[Chrisplosion]

Yeah I kinda cleaned out a lot post lol.....

 

[luohanfan]

I'm not trying to say that your treatment doesn't work, but i'm yet to see any information regarding it's effectiveness..
On the other hand, everything i find, including in the links you provide, states that it WON'T kill hex or spiro, but reduces the numbers...

Reducing the number of burden organisms by saline purges is an alternative method in the
treatment of parasitic infestation, especially from luminal parasites. Saline purges all act in a
similar mechanism by which the anions and cations are slowly absorbed from the digestive
tract. Magnesium salts frequently used as saline purgatives are Magnesium Sulfate, (Epsom
salts), Magnesium Hydroxide, Magnesium Oxide, (milk of magnesia), and Magnesium
Citrate, (Jenkins, 1988). They retain or attract water into the intestinal lumen mainly by
osmosis, which distends the gut and increases peristalsis, thus producing defecation.
Another mode of action of magnesium salts is causing the release of cholecystokinin, which
increases peristaltic activity of the intestine (Jenkins, 1988); intraluminal parasites then will
be expelled from host. The concentration of saline purgatives should be isotonic such as 6%
solution of Epsom salt to get a quick purgative action (Alexander, 1985). In the present
study, magnesium sulfate which may be helpful in reducing the number of diplomonads
was examined for an efficacy in inhibiting the parasite’s growth.


Unlike the previously discussed chemotherapeutic agents, magnesium sulfate (MgSO4,
Epsom salt) is frequently used as purgative. It has been used for the treatment of parasitic
diseases, especially luminal parasite infestations. When the magnesium salts reach the
intestine, magnesium ions cause the release of cholecystokinin, which increases peristaltic
activity of the intestine (Jenkins, 1988). Increased movement then helps the host to expel or
decrease the number of parasites in the intestine. Free flagellates of diplomonads are the
most commonly encountered stage found in the fish’s intestine (Woo and Poynton, 1995)
and are capable of disseminating to other tissues during stressful conditions of the host
(Molnár, 1974). Therefore, it was hypothesized that magnesium sulfate may also be helpful
in reducing the number of parasites in the intestine of the fish.

Magnesium sulfate
(Epsom salt) minimally affected the parasite’s growth at low concentrations but inhibited
growth at concentrations higher than 60 mg ml-1. It is suggested that magnesium sulfate at
high concentration may interfere with homeostasis of ions between the inside and the
outside of the cell. Further information of the mechanism actions of pyrimethamine and
magnesium sulfate on diplomonads is needed.

I'm asking for more information because it would be great to be able to treat with only magnesium sulphate, As metro is expensive, and can be hard to get in Australia..
And because the links you provide do not have any information about it killing, only inhibiting growth and helping to purge...
You show scientific studies on it NOT working to kill hex/spiro, do you have any links to studies where it DOES kill them?

No offense intended here, i would just like the facts...

 

[RD.]

I'm not trying to say that your treatment doesn't work, but i'm yet to see any information regarding it's effectiveness..

I have already shown you one example, MY fish. Did you view that fish, its condition, and how it is still parasite free 2 yrs later?

I have also mentioned, more than once now, how several other MFK members have had the same results as I did, not just on flowerhorn, but other cichlids as well. You ask for information, yet when I supply that information you choose to ignore it, asking for in-depth scientific studies that as far as I know do not exist, or at the least are unpublished studies - which is quite common in the scientific world. Not all research ends up in a peer reviewed journal, and even some that does cannot be found via a google search.

Did you read the paper by the The Israeli Journal of Aquaculture, linked to in the first post, where they stated;

Mortality ceased with application of medicated feed (magnesium sulfate at 3% of the feed) - Hexamita salmonis.

and ........

In early June 2004, a treatment of magnesium sulfate (3% of feed for three days) lowered the parasite load to almost undetectable levels.

Where do you think those researchers got the idea of using magnesium sulfate? Do you think that they just pulled that idea out of their arse one day while soaking their feet in a warm tub of epsom salt?

What about Dr. Edward J. Noga, MS, DVM, a highly respected professor of aquatic medicine and immunology, who has been published approx. 150 times in related papers/journals. His lab at NC State University specializes in the study of infectious diseases of finfish and shellfish ........... this is what he specializes in.

In his book; Fish Disease: diagnosis and treatment, Dr. Noga also mentions treating hexamita (spironucleus) orally with Magnesium sulphate.

Do you reckon that this idea just came to Dr. Noga in a dream late one night - so he published that information in his book on fish disease & treatment? A book that some of the most advanced aquarists in the world refer to, along with veterinarians, fisheries biologists, and commercial aquaculturists?

This isn't some little paperback put out by Tetrapress - it's one of THE most in-depth books on this subject that one can find in the world, and is even used by universities when teaching courses or having lectures on this subject. http://conference.ifas.ufl.edu/ame/wwf/index.html

This information was known within certain scientific circles over 15 years ago, but apparently was never openly shared with the average hobbyist.


Take a closer look at your last quote;

Magnesium sulfate
(Epsom salt) minimally affected the parasite’s growth at low concentrations but inhibited
growth at concentrations higher than 60 mg ml-1. It is suggested that magnesium sulfate at high concentration may interfere with homeostasis of ions between the inside and the
outside of the cell. Further information of the mechanism actions of pyrimethamine and
magnesium sulfate on diplomonads is needed.

Further information is needed ........... apparently at least by some people. I have no idea exactly how magnesium sulfate works, I just know that it does work, and works well.


I started this thread to bring this information to the general public. What anyone does with it is up to them. Personally I don't need someone in a white lab coat to tell me what the results were with the fish that I treated. That fish was knocking on heavens door when it reached me, and within 5 days of this treatment it was like a new fish. Unfortunately Chris had to shorten this thread, so many of the comments by people who have posted in it can no longer be read. There are also other threads on this subject, where the same success stories have been posted by other MFK members who prior to this treatment thought that there fish was a certain goner.

I didn't start this topic because I was looking for fame or fortune, I did so in the hopes of saving some fish from a disease that CAN be treated, and IMO & IME a treatment that in many cases is far more effective than metro, a drug that I was using to treat fish when a lot of the people on this forum were probably still in diapers.

You want facts, those are the facts.

 

[Chrisplosion]

If you want me too I can undelete all the post, figured I would clean it up but its cool.

 

[RD.]

Honestly Chris, I don't think that there's any need.

No one is holding a gun to anyones head over this treatment. Use the info, don't use it, spend the rest of your life on google, whatever.

 

[Chrisplosion]

Exactly