Uaru and angelfish in 75 gallon? Other ideas?

[Pudmuppy]

I still don't understand the ammonia issue. Do you not use water conditioner when you do 20% water changes on your current tanks?

Whether you change 20% or 100% of your water at a time, dechlorinator neutralizes chloramines/chlorine/ammonia. Then your filter processes it out. I do 100% water changes on all my tanks, from month-old fry to adult fish. You just add the adequate amount of Prime or Safe and it shouldn't be an issue. You don't need RO or any kind of filtration or storage. You simply need dechlorinator, which you should be using anyway even at 20% water changes.

Storage tanks are really only necessary if you're concerned with wildly swinging parameters. For instance, if your water comes out of the tap at pH 8 and then drops to pH 6.5 (or vice versa) after being aged and aerated, you wouldn't want to do massive water changes because the swings in parameters could stress your fish. Most people aging their discus water are doing so to stabilize parameters and heat the water, not necessarily tackle the chloramine issue.

If you're going the discus route in a tank that size, you should forget adding cichlid tankmates IMO. Your discus will thank you. In terms of feeding, only the old school people are using beefheart nowadays. Most people use freeze-dried blackworms and a good combination of dried, prepared foods. You still have to stay on top of water quality with them or they'll get stressed and that could lead to illness. People act like this is unique to discus but it really isn't. Tons of SA fish falter if their water isn't pristine: Hoplarchus, Uaru, altum angels, Satanoperca daemon, various species of Crenicichla and Geophagus, etc.

I do - Prime in particular. I think I might just have my head stuck on the idea that although a filter may be able to handle a good quantity of ammonia, that the sheer quantity of water being changed with Discus means that it can never quite keep up - to be honest, I very well may be over reacting! For sure, my current tanks get daily water changes, between 10-20% and then 50% at the weekend and there is rarely an ammonia presence between the Prime and filtration - I may be over worrying for sure.

I have a huge PH drop and age my water already, just on a smaller scale. It can go from 8.2 down to 6.4 in 12 hours! Fortunately once it hits 6.4 it stays stable.

I am a big fan of FDBW and would more than likely use that as a staple, there are some great sources for it these days. Beefheart is still really popular on SimplyDiscus and in home made foods, but I really don't like the idea of feeding it. You can get beefheart flakes which are apparently a lot cleaner so that may become an occasional treat!

If I go Discus then of course, my selection of tank mates will be considerably different - Still a good chunk of species to choose from!

 

[Pudmuppy]

There's a bit of a been there, done that aspect for me and discus this far down the road, but to this day they're a favorite among all the fish I've kept-- I've downsized and slowed down with fish from what I've done in the past, partly due to adding an artistic hobby that takes up some time (wood carving and sculpture, I'm in some galleries in my area) , so I'm not in the mode of adding tanks to accommodate all my fish interests, but I'd certainly do discus again in the right circumstance.

I've spent time on SD, never joined-- not much point, all I'd do is get into debates with some of those guys or otherwise be aggravated with them. There's a certain self-pollinating aspect on some forums, a majority accepts a certain approach and you can't tell them any different, no matter your own logic, success, or long experience.

I did several types of discus tanks, heavily planted, lightly planted, driftwood, no driftwood, black water, clear water, LOT of tankmates, few tankmates, species only, etc. I experimented with different temperatures, pH, water change regimens-- After a bit of experience with them I generally did 50-90% water changes, once or twice a week, depending on the tank and other factors. Back then I fed dry foods, sometimes frozen foods, good bit of live brine shrimp-- I had some big honking discus, nice and round, sans beef heart.

Certain things were always consistent: NO beef heart or other land animal foods. Never did bare tanks, always substrate and at least a few plants. Never did medicating or deworming to 'prevent' them getting sick. Never kept them in small 'breeder tanks', always a tank they had room to move around in. I don't see the point otherwise, I understand the economics of commercial breeding, but nothing better than a group of discus schooling from one end of the tank to another or leisurely picking their way through plants, driftwood, etc.

I strongly believe you can set yourself up to require frequent water changes. It's an easy and obvious formula: small tank, or smallish tank for the number of fish, feed beef heart or similar foods, feed heavily because you think they need it to reach a good size (they don't), feed more protein than they really need, bare tank, so nothing except your filter and water changes to keep the water clean-- Bingo, have fun doing water changes. Or... bigger tank for the same number of fish, more balance in tank ecology than a bare tank, feed moderately, cleaner foods, don't go overboard trying to grow them fast--> it's easier on water changes and you shouldn't have to medicate all the time. Pretty simple imo, it was for me.

Whatever fish I have I try to keep what I consider a balanced tank with an ecology that doesn't require fanatical maintenance. Substrate, filters, plants, driftwood or rocks, all figure in. I tend to stock lightly to moderately, but adjust water changes accordingly. I tend to do large, but not frequent water changes. I keep filters and substrate (gravel years ago, all sand now) clean, though my sand doesn't need much, honestly. I have the advantage of well water, so no chlorine/chloramine to worry about, but the disadvantage that, while my well never runs out, it's not the best water, orange-ish sometimes, typically cloudy, sometimes very cloudy-- sometimes I'll wait for a better day to do water changes, but even on a good day it takes filters some hours to clean it up (we filter drinking water or get it from a spring). If I did multiple water changes per week I'd have cloudy water half the time, LOL. Bottom line, though, is I rarely get a sick fish and they tend to live a long time-- they must like something I'm doing.

I don't know what the deal is with some people's discus getting sick all the time, I had an approach to keeping them, it worked for me and mine were always healthy without a lot of fuss, now and then I'd rescue a sick looking one and have to nurse it-- and wilds often came in looking rough. But there's more than one way to do it and keep them healthy, not claiming I had some exclusive secret. Medicating constantly can't be good for them. I don't agree with the way some people feed them (but if that's what you want to do and you want do all those water changes, knock yourself out). However, I wonder if some strains these days haven't had weaknesses bred into them.

I was going to try to PM you to ask a couple more Discus-y questions however I can't see the means to do so - it may be because I haven't had my coffee yet...
You have said some interesting things, and things I have wondered myself - mostly; have people been too "gentle" with Discus and set them up for failure with this level of coddling? Are some of these issues appearing because of how "perfect" they are being kept? I have seen some beautiful discus kept in so called inadequate conditions, still growing big, still breeding - just not quite as big and round as when kept in immaculate conditions. I do feel a little sad for the fish that looks gorgeous but has nothing but a BB glass box to play in. I like seeing natural behaviours.

If I went Discus, I think I would try to keep their diet fish based with perhaps the occasional beefheart treat. I have heard salmon fillet is a good way to go.. would be more than happy to have a constant supply of it coming into the house

Thanks for your comments - I had put Discus into the "too much work for now," category, but I am rethinking it now - I guess at the end of the day, it can't hurt to try and to get a feel for them, and if it goes wrong it will be a terrible shame and I will learn and move on, or if it does end up being too much work there is always someone else out there looking for discus I will continue to have my constant internal debate until the tank arrives and I can actually stick something in there!

 

[neutrino]

I was going to try to PM you to ask a couple more Discus-y questions however I can't see the means to do so - it may be because I haven't had my coffee yet...
You have said some interesting things, and things I have wondered myself - mostly; have people been too "gentle" with Discus and set them up for failure with this level of coddling? Are some of these issues appearing because of how "perfect" they are being kept? I have seen some beautiful discus kept in so called inadequate conditions, still growing big, still breeding - just not quite as big and round as when kept in immaculate conditions. I do feel a little sad for the fish that looks gorgeous but has nothing but a BB glass box to play in. I like seeing natural behaviours.

If I went Discus, I think I would try to keep their diet fish based with perhaps the occasional beefheart treat. I have heard salmon fillet is a good way to go.. would be more than happy to have a constant supply of it coming into the house

Thanks for your comments - I had put Discus into the "too much work for now," category, but I am rethinking it now - I guess at the end of the day, it can't hurt to try and to get a feel for them, and if it goes wrong it will be a terrible shame and I will learn and move on, or if it does end up being too much work there is always someone else out there looking for discus I will continue to have my constant internal debate until the tank arrives and I can actually stick something in there!

Imo what you're currently doing for water changes should work for discus, assuming a few simple and reasonable things most fish appreciate: not overcrowding, not overfeeding, reasonable filter maintenance, good nutrition, tankmates that don't harass them or stress them out (if you want tankmates), and reasonably healthy individuals to begin with. One thing I did subscribe to was feeding them as grazers, a few small feedings per day in preference to one or two large feedings, even as adults.

When I kept mine in the low to mid 6s pH, my water was such that I was lowering pH to get there. If your water naturally settles there, that in itself shouldn't be a problem imo if your regimen already includes keeping actual tank pH fairly stable.

Beyond that I have to touch on approach, which is where people differ-- so my disclaimer here is the following might reflect some philosophical differences I have with certain demographics in the discus world.

I wouldn't think keeping them in excellent conditions actually harms them as much as:
The constant medicating some people do-- How can this be good? Meds have their place, but there's literature out there indicating an immune suppressing effect for some fish meds (I wouldn't have a list in my head). Keep hammering a fish's immune system, healthy gut bacteria, etc. with meds and they wonder why their fish get sick a lot? But it's worse than that, there's a good bit of aquaculture literature concerning the overuse of anti-biotics creating resistant fish diseases.

Overfeeding, obsession with 'high protein' and fast growth, trophy sizes, and somewhat arbitrary or artificial standards of 'perfection'. The feeding debate will go on and on imo-- beef heart, what enzymes discus have and what that does or doesn't mean., protein requirements, etc. There's at least 3 studies (or topics) fairly well known in some discus circles-- one involves a 12 week study with results that young, growing discus grew fastest during that span on 45-50% protein-- a lot has been made of this by some, but, this is actually similar to fry or juvies of many species, it doesn't tag discus as having exceptional protein requirements. It certainly doesn't prove they specifically need beef protein vs protein sources in their natural habitat.

Another involves wild discus stomach contents and has been undertaken by more than one source with generally similar findings: discus diet varies according to season and habitat where each species is found, and generally includes a lot of detritus, plant material, algae, aquatic invertebrates, some bugs, and in that general order, with detritus and plant material swapping places according to season, blue/brown discus consuming a higher % of aquatic invertebrates than other types. You can, and people do, debate what this means for protein consumption of wild discus, but nothing here hints at land animal protein, beyond a limited % of bugs. Objectively, what's on the side of land animal protein is simply the fact that discus keepers who use it have found they eat it and grow on it and it's been used for years.

A third is a study of protein enzymes in discus digestion, used by some to argue that they're capable of digesting beef heart.

My view is, whatever your opinion or choices and however they work for you, they don't need land animal protein, which is fact, not opinion, and is separate from a debate over whether they can have land animal protein. Setting that aside and going back to overfeeding and the obsession of some people with fast growth-- I simply find it's not necessary to get good sized, healthy adults, and there's a good amount of science out there that says overfeeding and overdoing protein actually slows growth, creates food assimilation inefficiencies, produces more nitrogen wastes, etc.

On what I consider somewhat artificial notions of 'perfection'... People have their preferences in this area and judges at a show have their criteria. Fine. But a discus doesn't have to have the 'perfect' profile, zero peppering, and whatever else to be a nice, big, healthy, beautiful fish. As I've related elsewhere, in the early days of pigeon blood discus I saw a pigeon blood strain the NY breeder called 'royal king'. To this day they're maybe the most impressive and beautiful discus I've seen, certainly the largest, and they had spectacular color... and they had some peppering.

Are there weaker strains today, actually requiring 'perfect' care? If so, I'd suspect overbreeding to produce novel color variations-- don't know, have they created some EBJD-like strains of discus? Another possibility is overusing meds (maybe just certain meds) while growing them to saleable sizes damages their immune system or other developmental factors. A documented example of an issue with meds and fry I've seen found an issue with swim bladder inflation in angelfish fry with meth blue at certain percentages.

--Don't know how much all that long-windedness helps you, lol. As I say, there's more than one approach to certain aspects of keeping them. Bottom line for me is, yes, discus are something of a commitment, but not near so bad as some people make them out to be. Or at least they needn't be. Some of that is in your methods of keeping them.

 

[Pudmuppy]

neutrino - not long windedness, just fascinating! I love discussing these sorts of things. I do wonder how things would turn out in a couple of generations for discus that are kept in good, not immaculate, conditions and whether this would be mirrored in hardier individuals (survival of the strongest kicking in). They probably won't be as big, and probably won't be as "beautiful" (I like a bit of peppering!) however I wonder if they will become more tolerant. I am certain that if I do get discus, although I will do my very best to give them the best of lives, I will also not be trying to keep them totally sterile. I may also see what happens by not going the beefheart route (although I might give flakes as a treat). I am in no rush for big fish and if they don't hit the coveted 6+ inches then eh.... I am sure they will be gorgeous and healthy anyway.
I ordered some equipment today, going to order the tank at the weekend - it begins!

 

[altums85]

Discus are not to much work. They're like any other fish in my opinion. Never had a prob with discus. As long as u start off with healthy ones. I just got back into discus and bought a group. I dont even heat my tank in the summer. During the day it gets to 80's and night in the high 60's. I dont even check water parameter or anything special.Just good food and good water like any other fish and u be good. It looks like u worry a bit to much about chlorine and stuff. Just age your water.

 

[neutrino]

neutrino - not long windedness, just fascinating! I love discussing these sorts of things. I do wonder how things would turn out in a couple of generations for discus that are kept in good, not immaculate, conditions and whether this would be mirrored in hardier individuals (survival of the strongest kicking in). They probably won't be as big, and probably won't be as "beautiful" (I like a bit of peppering!) however I wonder if they will become more tolerant. I am certain that if I do get discus, although I will do my very best to give them the best of lives, I will also not be trying to keep them totally sterile. I may also see what happens by not going the beefheart route (although I might give flakes as a treat). I am in no rush for big fish and if they don't hit the coveted 6+ inches then eh.... I am sure they will be gorgeous and healthy anyway.
I ordered some equipment today, going to order the tank at the weekend - it begins!

Yes. I don't have a problem with the no peppering thing as a personal preference and I can understand produing a strain in which the ideal for that particular strain is no peppering. But making it into a general standard for pigeon bloods that says discus that have it are flawed is arbitrary and artificial and I don't buy it. Says who? is my answer.

Not to make a federal case out of it, but "nice fish, too bad it has some peppering" for pigeon bloods sounds like a fish version of saying "too bad some red heads have freckles."

 

[adamsfishes]

I had a beautiful female pigeon blood for a long time that had "peppering". I personally find it silly that some people claim it's somehow undesirable, but to each their own.

 

[Pudmuppy]

Thanks everyone! I am still undecided! I have three main ideas to progress - angels and guianacara / thorichthys and centrals / discus and I change my mind on a daily basis depending on how my day went. Discus are still very high, I am just not sure I can keep up with the waterchanges for juveniles, and I can't justify buying adults right now. Angels and guianacara I would love to do but can't find guianacara right now, and thorichthys I know little about but they seem very interesting. Watch this space!

 

[Pudmuppy]

Figured I would drop in with an update and *more* questions...
So, after a month or so of agonising over what I wanted to keep, I decided on Discus. Lots of reading, prep, etc... waiting for tank to cycle (being v slow).
While the tank is cycling, I decided I would upgrade my smallest 10 gallon to a 20g and mix two of my newt groups together to breed next year. Tank looks awesome. Added in my favourite fancy goldfish as well. She was a very happy goldfish.
Husband came in to see the new tank and saw the goldfish - and proclaimed that he loved her. He didn't realise they could get so pretty and big, and that they were so much fun and active all the time. Then he asked the question that I had been asking him for ages before I got the tank - why don't I put fancy goldfish into the main tank?!

I was pretty incredulous when he said this, as I had said many times to get more fancy golds as I think they would look stunning in the main tank.... and he had always said that goldfish were boring and too generic and he didn't like them. His reasoning is that the last time he looked at my indoor fish they were tiny and boring (they were about an inch in size....) and he hadn't realised that they looked like that when bigger...

Ugh. And yay!

I did have a question though - I was very interested in gymnogeophagus, but decided against because of the cooling period, however I have seen some people here mix gymnogeophagus and goldfish especially during the cool period and I am pretty interested in trying to do this, and wonder if I could get more information? I am thinking particularly about Balzanii as they are very interesting. Would a small colony of Balzanii get along with a small group of fancy goldfish? I don't see why not, however would love some first hand stories.
I would probably still pull the Balzanii and put them in the garage for a couple of months over winter, as I doubt our lounge temperature will drop below 70 in winter. They could perhaps even go in my small outdoor pond with other fancy goldfish.

So I am pretty excited right now. Could also add some other temperate species too, am still researching. I have a momentary hold on filling the tank anyway, as our living situation might change suddenly, but as soon as that is resolved, I am filling that tank!

 

[tlindsey]

Figured I would drop in with an update and *more* questions...
So, after a month or so of agonising over what I wanted to keep, I decided on Discus. Lots of reading, prep, etc... waiting for tank to cycle (being v slow).
While the tank is cycling, I decided I would upgrade my smallest 10 gallon to a 20g and mix two of my newt groups together to breed next year. Tank looks awesome. Added in my favourite fancy goldfish as well. She was a very happy goldfish.
Husband came in to see the new tank and saw the goldfish - and proclaimed that he loved her. He didn't realise they could get so pretty and big, and that they were so much fun and active all the time. Then he asked the question that I had been asking him for ages before I got the tank - why don't I put fancy goldfish into the main tank?!

I was pretty incredulous when he said this, as I had said many times to get more fancy golds as I think they would look stunning in the main tank.... and he had always said that goldfish were boring and too generic and he didn't like them. His reasoning is that the last time he looked at my indoor fish they were tiny and boring (they were about an inch in size....) and he hadn't realised that they looked like that when bigger...

Ugh. And yay!

I did have a question though - I was very interested in gymnogeophagus, but decided against because of the cooling period, however I have seen some people here mix gymnogeophagus and goldfish especially during the cool period and I am pretty interested in trying to do this, and wonder if I could get more information? I am thinking particularly about Balzanii as they are very interesting. Would a small colony of Balzanii get along with a small group of fancy goldfish? I don't see why not, however would love some first hand stories.
I would probably still pull the Balzanii and put them in the garage for a couple of months over winter, as I doubt our lounge temperature will drop below 70 in winter. They could perhaps even go in my small outdoor pond with other fancy goldfish.

So I am pretty excited right now. Could also add some other temperate species too, am still researching. I have a momentary hold on filling the tank anyway, as our living situation might change suddenly, but as soon as that is resolved, I am filling that tank!

duanes