WARNING about new hikari shrimp cuisine

[swede]

Hikari has just come out with Shrimp Cuisine, which is supposedly designed just for freshwater shrimp and inverts. However, I wanted to let everyone know that it contains copper purposely. They claim the copper is beneficial to FW shrimp. This seems like a total contradiction to me and I will be avoiding this product since copper even in small amounts is toxic to inverts. FW shrimp are especially sensitive, and copper is contained in many disease/parasite treatments that clearly say not to use with inverts present.

 

[Lilium]

I found this about that on another site when I was looking about copper on invertebrates.

To be a stickler for terminology, shrimp don't have blood or a closed circulatory system as in vertebrates; instead, a fluid called hemolymph sloshes about within the body cavity. The oxygen-carrying molecule in their hemolymph is hemocyanin, a respiratory protein which binds oxygen using two copper atoms.

According to this paper, decapod crustaceans (like shrimp) need around 31.3 to 38.1 μg (1 μg = 1/1,000,000 of a gram) of copper per gram of body mass "to meet the requirements of both copper-associated enzymes and the copper bearing respiratory pigment haemocyanin".

The line between need and toxicity can be fine (source), but copper is an essential trace metal required for copper-dependent enzymes in energy production, pigmentation, and so on.

We should distinguish this dietary requirement from the effects of the cupric ion (Cu+2). This is copper's major toxic species -- doing much damage to crustacean gills by inhibiting osmoregulation -- and results when copper sulfate medications are added to water (source).
__________________

Yes. Seems to be true. I actually emailed Hikari yesterday and this their reply to me today:

"Here is a more in depth response from our research staff.

Yes, too much copper in the diet will kill the shrimp. But, shrimp need a very small amount of copper in their food for good health.

Not like us(humans), animals or fish, most shrimp use copper to deliver oxygen
inside of their body. For example, we (humans) have red blood cells which
contain hemoglobin. Hemoglobin contains iron metal (Fe), and this iron
actually absorbs oxygen at large and delivers this oxygen to every part of
body and organs.

However, in the case of Shrimp, they have Hemocyanin in their blood cells, with
copper metal. They use copper to deliver oxygen to their vital organs and circulatory system.
That is why their blood is clear or green color rather than red color like ours (humans).

We hope this additional information helps!"
End of email.

I myself haven't tested it long enough or well enough. I fed flakes with copper in them to a shrimp, and a wild crayfish, but I haven't tested long enough to get results, and have given up, unless I can get myself a better container, and more patience. x-x

 

[uncwnells]

is this a warning or an opinion?

 

[sostoudt]

a small amount of copper in the water is ok for most inverts and i guess from your post its important. did you know the salt mixs and trace elements for reef tanks contain copper. its when you get too much that it becomes poison.
personally i think my freshwater shrimp never looked worse then when i used ro/di water in there tank.

 

[swede]

well personally i see this post as a warning. i gave my opinion, yes, but many people may buy the hikari shrimp delight WITHOUT KNOWING it has copper in it. I'm just trying to tell people that it has copper, that copper can be toxic to shrimp, and that i personally won't use this product. It is surprising to me that they need micro amounts of copper, but i don't want to use food that has copper in it as their staple food. Like was said, any flake food will have some copper, so why not give them food with copper once in a while. i dont want them to pig out on food that has copper and OD on it. if anyone has used the shrimp delight with success i would be curious to hear, but i'm not going to be the guinea pig

 

[msjinkzd]

I have used the shrimp delight, as well as the crab cuisine (also has trace amounts of copper). I have used the crab cuisine as part of my feeding regime for over two years. Most prepared fish foods have a small amount of copper in them. I have over 20 tanks with invertebrates wiht no issues. You should not use medications with copper, but the trace amounts found in these diets should not be fatal. That being said, its not their sole food, but one of several foods in a rotation which i feed all my invertebrates.

 

[black_sun]

Issues with copper are really more in medications, pipe water, etc than food (though some brands specifically for certain species of fish do have higher levels than others).

But for the average joe who can't make this distinction or doesn't have the means to go about measuring out the amounts of copper they're using to know when/if they're approaching a dangerous level, I guess it's a good warning.

But I've used any number of Hikari products, many with copper in them (shrimp cuisine included) without any issues in my snails, shrimp, crabs or crayfish. But never as a sole, daily food (because copper aside, that's not giving them everything they need, nutrient wise)... so maybe daily use could pose an issue. But in general, no, it's fine from what I've seen for almost 2 years. Everyone is growing, breeding, healthy and active. ^_^

 

[HarleyK]

"All things are poison and nothing is without poison, only the dose permits something not to be poisonous."

Paracelsus

 

[Lupin]

I have used the shrimp delight, as well as the crab cuisine (also has trace amounts of copper). I have used the crab cuisine as part of my feeding regime for over two years. Most prepared fish foods have a small amount of copper in them. I have over 20 tanks with invertebrates wiht no issues. You should not use medications with copper, but the trace amounts found in these diets should not be fatal. That being said, its not their sole food, but one of several foods in a rotation which i feed all my invertebrates.

Issues with copper are really more in medications, pipe water, etc than food (though some brands specifically for certain species of fish do have higher levels than others).

But for the average joe who can't make this distinction or doesn't have the means to go about measuring out the amounts of copper they're using to know when/if they're approaching a dangerous level, I guess it's a good warning.

But I've used any number of Hikari products, many with copper in them (shrimp cuisine included) without any issues in my snails, shrimp, crabs or crayfish. But never as a sole, daily food (because copper aside, that's not giving them everything they need, nutrient wise)... so maybe daily use could pose an issue. But in general, no, it's fine from what I've seen for almost 2 years. Everyone is growing, breeding, healthy and active. ^_^

And take note, the copper used for food is copper proteinate in small traces. Copper proteinate has been deactivated of its toxic side effects and aside from that, the concentration is really too small to fatally kill anything.

 

[swede]

well i must say that this has been and education to me. a lot of the information i found just said that copper was bad and some sources, including those in print said to avoid feeding crystal red shrimp and other FW shrimp anything containing copper. I feel less concerned and actually could have been depriving them of certain foods that would've given them the tiny amounts of copper they need. I stand corrected. thanks everyone!